Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it a "punishment" from a god; upon ourselves, that brethren cannot practice a moral of goodwill toward men, simply for the sake of morals?

 

We should consider another possibility which adds I confess a certain significance to the crucifixion. That is, in order for the creator (or whatever you wan't to call he/she/it) to allow for free will and avoid metaphysical contradictions, he/she/it committed suicide at the point our universe was created. Big bang indeed.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah?

Not exactly something I would use to make a point considering the veracity of whether or not they existed.

AboveAlpha

 

Absolutely nothing to back this up.

AboveAlpha

 

I'm may be dumb at times but I'm not that thick. How could anyone back up such a notion?
Didn't you register the significance of 'possibility' in my first sentence and it's alternative,
just as impossible to back up, 'impossibility' ?

 

Evidence available to us suggests evil acts aren't always punished and moral ones not necessarily rewarded. You may claim a balance is attained after death in a new life but that's mere speculation. I'm reminded of one of Joni Mitchell's lyrics based on the book of Job:-
Tell me why do you starve the faithful?
Why do you crucify the saints?
And you let the wicked prosper
You let their children frisk like deer

 

Don't get me wrong.....I understand your premise that a GOD convinced JESUS to go through a CRUCIFIXION in a sense of self imposed suicide.....but the Probability Calculations for this are of such a negative magnitude they are over 10,000 times what a STATISTICAL IMPOSSIBILITY exists at.

A Statistical Impossibility exists at ONE CHANCE IN 10^150th.

This 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000....anyways.....a 10...with 150 ZERO'S behind it.

I got tired of typing zero's.

So as far a Crucifixion being an agreed upon form of suicide by a Half Human Half GOD is 1 in 10^1,500,000.

Or 1 chance in 10 with 1.5 MILLION ZERO'S AFTER IT!!!

Have you ever wonder WHY only 4 Apostles and their Gospels were allowed by the Roman Imperial Biblical Canon?

And please don't think my posting this in any way is an attempt to back the Jewish or Muslim Religions because both are just as idiotic mathematically and historically as this......the FAB 4 APOSTLES and their Gospels were only used in the New Testament because they conflict with the other 8 Apostles Gospels.

The Fab 4 Gospels state that Jesus taught he was the actual and physical son of GOD where the other 8 Apostles Gospels state that Jesus taught that ALL MEN COULD BECOME THE SON'S OF GOD IF THEY FOLLOWED HIS TEACHINGS!!!

Islam and the Jews also have idiocies within their religions.

Moses NEVER PARTED THE RED SEA!!!

Moses and the Hebrews CROSSED THE YAM SUPH or REED SEA OR SEAWEED SEA...which was a shalllow tidal Salt Water marshy area between the Med. and Red Sea's.

Islam was at first SUNG and dependent upon what region of the Middle East you lived the Songs were slightly different.

THERE WAS NO STANDARDIZED FORM OF ISLAM UNTIL IT WAS PLACED IN PRINT.....and members are hearing this from a man who has spent many years in the Middle East and I actually enjoy the peace and harmony of the MORNING PRAYER sung and amplified from the Minaret's.

I once tried to educate an Iman about the earliest Minaret being developed and built in China as Buddhist pagodas. I had been in this area of the Middle East for 3 months and we had made great progress but the Iman's reaction was unexpected.

Angry, Indignant...etc.

I knew from experience I had to nip this in the bud...and I did.

After he apologized. .

I explained to him.....after several months I knew EVERYTHING that he had done both against us and in the last month....for us...as I flipped him.

And I told him that nothing had hurt me more than for him not to trust me about my attempt of educating him and his anger and refusal to at the very least look into it.

I am still alive for a few specific reasons.....

#1. I am the best at what I do.

#2. My Team I hand pick and I train them and they are the BEST at what they do.

#3. I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S CULTURES, RELIGIONS, BELIEF SYSTEMS AND IDEOLOGY as long as they do not cross the line by blaming and hurting a girl or woman as I will KILL EVERYONE AND BURN A 2000 YEAR OLD VILLAGE DOWN then allow a girl or woman to be hurt or tortured because of some idiocy over Family Honor!!!

Only ONCE I could not stop this because it was either the lives of my men or a girl....and I chose my men even though every single one of them was willing and ready to GIVE THEIR LIVES to say that poor girl!!!

It is something I think about every day of my life.....and although I KNOW I made the only choice I could make....in my dreams I torture myself trying to figure out what could I have done to accomplish both goals.

A Human Being is difficult to kill without modern weapons or a knife.

Stoning to death takes time as a human being is tough.

After what happened...and I had my Sniper Crews Digitally Video everyone involved as our Barrett M82's have Computerized Digital Scopes that are basically Digital Zoom Video Cameras....and they are .50 Caliber but because we were hiding along boulders inside this mountain top surrounded village at over 9,000 feet....being pursued by 3 to 4 Enemy Groups as we had just pulled off a JOB.....my Team kept looking at me as every softball sized rock hit this girl...and she was a girl who was raped and her Father-in-Law demanded his family honor be restored so by Sharia Law she was accused of INFIDELITY and sentenced to death by stoning.

And we could hear ever THUNK and CRY and MOAN as her Father-in-Law, Husband and Father WERE THE FIRST TO THROW SOFTBALL SIZED STONES!!!

My Team wanted to stop this.....I would not let them as to do so would give up our position.

She eventually died...and as I said...it took awhile as a Human Body is TOUGH.

We got video of everyone involved.

That night....and darkness comes early when your village plateau is surrounded my mountains.....that night we AVENGED HER DEATH.

My Team is comprised of the toughest men on Earth...usually U.S. Military...sometimes British and Aussie SAS....but there were no dry eye's after that!

We came in at dark....we took our time.

Of all the things I have experienced including 14 year old African Kid's hopped up on BROWN-BROWN which is Pot, PCP, Smokeless Gun Powder...sometimes Coke or Opiates....child warriors controlled by warlords who go into villages looking for any male child over 12 who the village hides and then if they find them as a warning to the village they pull them over a log and hack the arms and legs off them.....even after seeing that......

.....sometimes I dream of a girl's cries becoming softer and softer.....and then nothing.

I have killed many men...even women and children when they brandished weapons.....but that.....was inhuman.

AboveAlpha

 

Having somehow put behind me the shock of first reading your cosmic maths and then being plunged into the barbaric reality of religously inspired cruelty I find myself wanting to focus on your last word,'inhuman'. For me that's a central issue as my opinion of our species is that organised, calculated cruelty is a distinquishing attribute of our species.
I cannot imagine after what you've witnessed how you manage to remain sane. I've never experienced anything as blood curdling. The closest I came was when working for the Australian Gov't during the era of the White Australia Policy. At that time a revolution in (then) Burma resulted in the return at that government's request ( not really a gov't - more a military junta) of a number of Columbo Plan students. A team of four Burmese heart lung surgeons under my care applied for political asylum. The three full blooded Burmese were refused, the one Eurasion, who was more of European appearance, was allowed to remain in Australia. It was my job to take the three refused asylum to the airport and ensure they didn't get off the plane at the last minute. I knew they would be in some kind of trouble as soon as they arrived. They were hung as soon as they got off the plane and all their family assets comandered by the military. Their crime? They had over a certain decreed amount each in the bank.
I returned from seeing them off and resigned my position explaining why. This event was enough to give me nightmares so I simply cannot imagine what you experience.
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I'm left though with a puzzle, how on earth do you derive that maths from mere theological speculation? Not that I doubt it, I have no maths skills whatever.

 

Hanging is a quick death if the neck breaks...if not you have to watch them strangle to death.

I have seen things that are difficult to discuss.

I only talk about them sometimes to give people an understanding what some people can do to others.

Inhuman.

AboveAlpha

 

"How can the pot say to the pot maker, why did you make me this way?"

 

i need to learn how to demur better.

 

Creating an entity doesn't give the creator a right to punish the entity for rejecting him. If a son decides his father is a violent drunk and decides to leave him, the father has no ground to punish and torture his son.

There is no moral reason for Jesus to punish someone with hell for rejecting him.

 

Depends if the POT an communicate...and depends if there is a Pot Maker.

AboveAlpha

 

The calculations were done using networked Cray Supercomputers at Cal. Tech. many years ago.

I am well versed in Mathematics, Quantum Mechanics, Multiversal Models, Particle Physics, Cosmology, Astronomy, Business, Finance, Survival...etc.

AboveAlpha

 

I'm mathematically totally illiterate but do have some survival skills.
Besides, even when presented in plain English,Multiverse models give me migrains.

 

This is an easy way to look at it as far as a Multiverse.

Now at first we had the Many Worlds Model....which was there were infinite versions of our Universal Reality with infinite versions of you and me and every thing else.

So imagine a TREE....and each branch on this tree...and there are infinite branches...represents an Alternate Divergent Universal Reality like our own being one branch.....but all branches....or Universes having the exact same natural physical laws as every other branch or universe.

That's Many Worlds Theory.

Now...MULTIVERSAL THEORY MODELS.....there is an INFINITE FOREST WITH AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TREES AND EACH TREE ALSO HAS INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES.

The difference is each TREE.....represents and Alternate Baseline Reality which has completely different physical natural laws and constructs than our own tree baseline reality.

So Infinite Trees each with Infinite Branches.

Each Tree is an Alternate Baseline Reality Universal groping.....and each branch on each tree represents a universe.

But a branch on our tree or universe does NOT have the same physical laws not even the same Universal Space-Time Geometry as ours and perhaps contains a reality and constructs and physical natural laws so alien to our thinking and understandings that we as humans have no point of reference to understand these other trees and teir branches.

Get it now?

AboveAlpha

 

please define 'God'. i don't believe that your definition of God is consistent with the bible's definition of God. Your definition of God is merely a modern western definition which does not exist in the bible and which has only recently arisen in the last few centuries.

the God of the bible is not all-knowing, all-powerful. the God of the old testament is represented merely by finite angels. the God of the new testament is represented by Jesus Christ. the bible never directly represents God at any time in any way. no one has ever seen God at any time.

the judgments that you refer to are performed by finite angels. the bible never directly represents God at any time in any way.

 

I had a rough grasp of some of these theories already but what made me ask the question about having any certainty our mathematics can describe all this is contained in your last sentence. " and perhaps contains a reality and constructs and physical natural laws so alien to our thinking and understandings that we as humans have no point of reference to understand these other trees and their branches."
How though I wonder did we get here from the original post questioning the morality of whatever/ whoever supposedly designed this whole thing?
Anyhow, if there is a God,he/she/it also embodies a nature we have no point of reference to understand making all our so called holy books not only presumptuous but potentially blasphemous.

 

That's just silly to suggest there can be a pot without a maker.

 

Isn't it just as silly, then, to suggest there can be a maker without a maker ?

 

Is it immoral to simply Tax the wealthiest into Heaven until things improve for the People?

 

I posted this to show just how STUPID it is to think that anyone can proclaim to know with 100% Certainty a GOD exists.

Specifically a GOD as so advertised in ancient human religious text.

AboveAlpha

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The concept of a MAKER is logically flawed.

This is due to limited human perception of reality.

AboveAlpha

- - - Updated - - -

Well yeah.

There are many things in nature that primitives used as POTS or WATER CARRIERS....etc.

AboveAlpha

 

G's, the pots the primitive's used, were still made to be pots by the primitives. They still "decided" to designate those as pots.
"You" choose not to believe in a god....it's your choice, that's it...you are not dictating reality to anyone but you. But even that doesn't make it reality. If you were really God, you wouldn't get old and die. Your choice, is to refuse to consider the possibility that you were made for a purpose beyond that of turning into worm food at your death. It's kind of like driving down the road without looking beyond your bumper. And you call it "illogical" for those that do look down the road as they drive. The devil is not allowed to see the futility of his quest to be God.

 

I don't quibble over the divine; being abandoned in Nexus 6 with Zardoz, is "close enough for 'government' work" for me.

 

How did you avenge her death?