Trump refuses to call out Neo-Nazis/White Supremacists

Doesn't this thread qualify as flamebait?

 

Interesting that you cite MLK and Chavez. If diversity is such a strength, why did these people spend their entire lives fixing racial problems that wouldn't even exist if there was no diversity?

 

You have no grasp of what "racial discrimination" means, do you? So let's just leave it at this: it's illegal and contrary to the Constitution. Not to mention absolutely immoral and a violation of Human Rights.

You are optimistic. I do hope I don't need to worry about it. And I'm pretty sure I won't after Trump gets out. But not 100% certain.

Tempting... but... nah.. Just education and ridicule should get the job done. Those who can't be educated, can hide in shame, just as they did before Trump came to power.

They didn't believe he was a white supremacist. Now they know. They won't repeat that mistake again. At least probably not in my lifetime. You white supremacists are a smaller minority than you think.

It would most certainly be illegal. Both in U.S. law and in International Law. Ever hear of the "Civil Liberties Act of 1964"?

Of course I know that they exist. They are called "racists". Though they have also been called "the best financial supporters of the ACLU" when they try to implement those beliefs in the real world. The government doesn't have that kind of power. . Human beings do. It's called "Human Rights". No democratic government in the world has the power to deny them.

Let me ask you one thing. Not to pry or in any way offend. I'm just curious. Are you writing from outside the U.S.? Or maybe you are a newcomer? The reason I ask is because you seem to not be very informed about very basic U.S. law.

In the U.S. there is a freedom to assemble. There is no explicit "freedom of association" though it is part of common law. You can have whatever friends you want, or associate with anybody you want. You do not have a right to form a formal club (with dues or benefits... things like that) in which people are discriminated against because of their race, color, national origin, religion or sex (or sexual preferences, in most states). Even though it's worded that way, this is not a denial of rights to anybody. It actually grants people of all races, colors, sexes, religions and nationalities the right to belong to any such club, receive services that they pay for, etc. Just like everybody else does.

This is part of the American way. And it might seem odd to people who are not used to our culture. But you will grasp it soon. Unless you are living in one of those deep regions where racism is the norm. In which case you would need to go elsewhere to experience the real America.

I said I believe it's a good thing. Didn't you read?

Uhmm... I would tend to say that it is. At least in anything that is public. Or anything that is not only private to you, and nobody else.

Because it's a human right to be treated equally. I mean, of course, by the law. In your own private life you can buy a drink to whomever you want.

You are mistaken. Most people are not racists. It's in the history of this country that we incorporate them. For example, if there were Americans leaving Miami when Cubans started coming in they were an infinitesimally small minority. Most just went on with their life, and many even wed into Cuban families and assimilated the culture. There is no doubt that Miami is today a much more important, financially strong and progressive city than it was in the 50s.

No. It's due to holes in education. Especially in the area of culture. Most racist persons, as you, barely interact with other races, or know much about them. They lack education in what other cultures do and how they have benefited humanity. It's also sign of ignorance in many areas history, Sociology, Anthropology ... sometimes even biology.

However, in the United States this is particularly important, because diversity of cultures is what has made us what we are. It's the reason why we are the most powerful nation in the world. It's our great competitive advantage. If you remove that, losing our stature in the world will be short-lived.

Not in this country. Non-whites are minorities because Whites are majority. No other reason.

Oh... your racism shines through. Nothing to be proud of, though.

 

Because there is diversity. Sure... if we were all black, we wouldn't have racial problems. Reality is that we are not all black.

Reality always supersedes fantasy.

 

Exactly. Diversity is purely negative, it only brings problems, but we have to deal with it because it's here whether we want it or not. Since then some good people have made efforts to make it suck less for everyone, while other race hustlers tend to make it worse instead.

That sounds like a more honest assessment of the situation, doesn't it? Why don't people deserve the truth? Why do people repeat the PC lie that diversity is a strength? Why is more diversity a good thing? We already have pretty big problems with the diversity we have now, so doesn't more diversity just mean more problems?

 

You mean because of the presence of so many self-proclaimed racists. To a certain extent. But, in Trump's America, I guess we'll have to get used to engaging with them more and more while the White-Supremacist in Chief is in power. To try to educate them a bit. It's OK so long as they remain respectful.

 

Yes. In this country (namely, the USA). But once they have their own new country, then they can write up their own new Constitution however they like. And if they want to restrict citizenship to White persons only...then that's just how it's going to be.

People have the rights to certain things, however they don't have the right to inject themselves into people who don't want them there.

It's "education" to you only. To the rest of the sane folks, what they do in schools is indoctrination. Or something very close to it. Also, ridiculing people for holding certain beliefs and having certain thoughts? Just how Orwellian can you be? Next thing I know, you are going to have racists hold up a sign that says, "I am an evil racist" and then make them march through the town square.

You think we are small in number, I think we are not. Impasse.

Laws are not always right. They can certainly be unjust, too.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say. Anyway, the only entities that are obligated to uphold "human rights" are the various levels of governments. Private individuals are not bound by this.

Do you believe that the government gets to compel people to treat each other equally?

I am originally from Asia. I now live in Canada.

All this still does not change the fact that people have the right to exclude anybody from their group/association/life. Or they should, anyway.
If some white people want to form a club that only accepts white people, will you be OK with this or are you going to throw them in jail?

I am afraid you don't get to define what the REAL America is.

I did, and the conclusion I arrived at was that you cream your pants over it. Something that you did not deny. LOL!

You say it is, I say it's not. Impasse.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Do private individuals have the right to treat other people unequally, or not? Also I don't get why you keep bringing up "human rights" as if it were a universally agreed upon value. It's not. My concept of "human rights" could be very different from yours. You and I probably also differ very greatly on which entity should get to administer these rights.

I don't care to expend energy to convince you that most people are racist. You can think what you want.

I would not be too quick to say this if I were you. I both live and work in heavily diverse areas in Vancouver. I have a lot of experiences with minorities.

I could make the argument that the USA is great despite diversity. Although I just can't be arsed. I don't really care what you think is the cause for America's greatness.

My point is that the word "minority" really means non-whites.

I disagree. I think it's something to be proud of.

 

Diversity only has positives. The problem is not diversity. The negative element in my statement is not "race" but "racial problems". These are only caused by bigotry and racism. So that's the problem that needs to be eliminated. If there was no racial diversity, today's racists would find something else to discriminate on. So that wouldn't solve anything. Racism is pure bullying. Nothing more....It's understandable (though not justifiable) at a school level where kids are just starting their education. On adults it's a disease. But a treatable one.

So racists need education on things they have never learned about in their life: cultural differences, morals, history, sociology, anthropology... even certain aspects of biology. might help.

Yep! And you can call those people who tend to make it worse by name: racists.

Racism is a psychological problem. Its origin is in lack of education and lack of contact and understanding of other etnnic groups and cultures So it's treatable with education and contact with those groups. As well as profound understanding of why moral values are important for the survival of the human species.

No. More racists means more problems. You can't change a person's ethnicity. But you can change his education level. Psychological problems can be treated.

 

Wait a minute. Are you Jewish?

I mean, the name "golem", you say that you're white but refer to whites as "they" and call "them" all racist...

 

Insults prove nothing. Taking from some and giving to others is part of the Communist approach, and our government does that big time.

 

Nope. The problem is not geographical. It's moral. They would still be in contravention of Human Rights. An immoral society would not survive long anyway. They would die out as it is doubtful anybody would engage in commerce with them.

They have the right to inject themselves in anything where it's acceptable to the general public. You can chose who you invite to your birthday party. But if you create any type of organization that accepts all public so long as they are of a certain race, sex, religion or nationality... you're in trouble. A Catholic school (for example) that would only accept Catholics, for example, would have their asses sued.

"Education" is teaching people. If they teach them moral values, it's a good thing. If they teach them immoral values, then they're not.

Understand! It's not about holding "certain" beliefs or thoughts. It's for having "immoral" beliefs.

I wouldn't do anything like what you say. I would just educate them.

They can. But not in this case.

Oh... they most certainly are. You see... governments are obligated to uphold "human rights" by enacting them into laws. And private individuals are bound to follow laws.

They can compel people to not discriminate based on race, sex and sexual preference, religion, color or nationality. They can't compel people to invite the whole neighborhood to your birthday party. But if they invite the whole neighborhood except the Catholic family that lives two houses down... they could very well be sued.

Ok. That explains it.

I think there is a clear example in the birthday party example. I don't know (I believe not) if jail is the proper remedy. But a proper lawsuit would be in order.

I don't "define" it. It's just something I know. I have no idea who defined it.

Probably because I have no idea what that means. Only thing I may cream on my pants over is a good looking lady.

Again: see birthday example.

.
Well... there is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, of course. But they respond to an objective and universal moral principle. Which is the preservation of the community of human beings.

Not only "could" it. It does. My concept of "human rights" is based on an objective moral principle. Yours is obviously not.

If there are, they can stay in their shells. Or come out and be educated. Their choice.

Yeah? I wonder who wrote "I am Asian and almost all of my friends are Asian. I hardly talk to any White person outside of work"

In any case, the fact that you have experiences with minorities does not fill the education hole. You would need to understand, for example, the nature of culture in general, as well as the nature of their particular culture. It's a long-life process that requires much effort. Nothing that would be acquired just because you say "hola" every morning to the Hispanic that prepares your coffee at the corner Starbucks.

From the above quote, it's obvious that you haven't even integrated into the Canadian culture. Surefire recipe to become a racist. It's not your fault. You've had no choice. It's a psychological issue. But it's fixable.

It has nothing to do with what I "think". Only has to do with what I know and have experienced. You, on the other hand, have missed a whole life of experiences. And that's the problem.

 

You are partially correct. Racism is as natural as getting fat. Different is danger and a natural survival instinct. You are correct that only proper education can overcome it.

 

So what would happen if they were "in contravention of Human Rights"? The UN is going to send troops into a sovereign nation to arrest people?

Why do you keep bringing the concept of Human Rights anyway? It's not some sort of universally agreed upon value/s that everybody holds. It's mostly just liberals and anti-racists that embrace it. When they first drafted up this garbage, did they consult other people about it? Beliefs and moral values are highly subjective in nature. What progressives think and want can be very different what the average person wants.

Sounds like speculation on your part. It is too early to be talking about this kind of thing anyway. White Nationalists have still a long way to go before they need to deal with this.

I don't buy into this whole, "people can only discriminate in private but not in public" concept. Does it say in the Constitution that people can only discriminate in private?

And I am saying this is not right. Private people should be able to discriminate against anybody for any reason at all.

And I think the values that your side is teaching the kids are immoral. Therefore, it's indoctrination.

Racist beliefs are not immoral. I think the beliefs held by people like you are immoral.

Who gets to decide what values are moral or what aren't? The government?

And after you try to indoctrinate, er, I mean, "educate" them, and they still want to be racist? What then?

And why did you say you would ridicule the racists? Is it because you are Orwellian?

Actually, yes in this case. The laws you cited are unjust. Governments have no business compelling people not to discriminate.

Governments can uphold human rights all they want but they cant compel private individuals to uphold them too. Just because it's legal it doesn't mean it's right.

I know they currently can, and I am saying this is both wrong and unjust.

I know they could. And I am saying this shouldn't be the way it is. Why is it the government's business who I want to invite to my b-day party?

What does it "explain"? That I have such "backwards" thinking because I am an Asian immigrant? Don't hold back.

The government has no business compelling me to invite certain people to my party. I can't believe you are defending this.

Then you don't know the whole picture. I have read stuff online that goes hugely counter to what you espouse.

I will make sure to spell out an insult for you next time.

That and your own race becoming a minority. Don't forget that.

You talk as if that crap is universally agreed upon. It's not.

I think the opposite.

Keep thinking that just because I hold different views than you do, that means I am "un-educated".

You don't get to determine the criteria to measure whether someone has experiences with minorities.

Why should people even care anyway? Diversity is a bad deal for white people.

Thanks for your condescension. But just to be clear, I am not "psychologically unbalanced" as you might be implying. And it's mostly a conscious choice that I made (along with help from the innate racism that is inside both me and most normal people). And I don't need to be "fixed". The only people who need help in that department are the liberals and anti-racists like you.

Then you experienced wrong. America is great despite minorities and liberals/progressives.

I can also turn this on its head and say YOU are the one that's missing experiences. All that time wasted consorting with minorities...you could be building meaningful relationships with other white people.

 

Diversity is not the problem since that is just the way that people happen to be born.

Racists are the problem because racism is an irrational hatred of others.

No one is born a racist.

Racism is a learned behavior.

Racism can be unlearned and the problem goes away.

 

Prejudice, & bigotry would have to fall too.

 

Agreed!

 

It's important to remember where the domestic terrorist in Charlottesville was coming from.

He had posted these on his Facebook account:

​

https://twitter.com/cjcmichel/status/896567841897533440

 

Nope. I'm an atheist.

When I say "them" to racists, the "they" also refers to racists. A minuscule part of the white population is racist.

 

It's also part of the Robin Hood movie. Saying that you don't know history or what Communism is is not an insult. I'm just stating a fact. And you illustrate it again here.

 

Ask South Africa when they had Apartheid...Ask North Korea what the UN can do. Ask Iran... Oh... the UN can hurt you pretty bad. Maybe not kill you, but they can do some damage....

Funny you should say that because... that's exactly what it is.

I

The Constitution used to say that it was OK to own slaves. Though that has been removed. No limitations on what you can do privately that I can remember. Only on what you do publicly.

Wait! I think it used to be illegal to marry somebody of a different race.

Yeah... and many years ago I thought I should be able to flirt with the cute receptionist at my office.. Today they're both considered immoral. More so your fantasy than mine, though.

Racist beliefs are not immoral. I think the beliefs held by people like you are immoral.[/QUOTE]

Well, we've been to war over it... and we won... Better luck next time!

The moral values are objective. The human race cannot survive isolated. It can only survive by living in communities. So whatever supports the existence and strength of the community of human beings goes into the ethical list called "good", whatever opposes it goes into the "bad" ethical list.

Pretty easy actually.

The Preamble to the Constitution expresses exactly this moral imperative in the following way:

Well, then that thing that the Romans used to do with Lions and people starts to sound fun...

Actually not much. Racists were living in shame before Trump. They'll go back in the shadows and everybody else will act as if they didn't exist. Just like it was in the good ol' days of 6 months ago....

Orwellian? That's funny! What do you think that means? Nobody was as good as Orwell ridiculing racists...

So said the fascists. But they lost the argument...

No. Because you're a racist. All Asians I have ever known personally have been very forward thinking. No racists among them, though. My High-school girlfriend, who was daughter of Chinese immigrants, was maybe too forward thinking...

Your rights end where your neighbors' rights begin. And vice versa.

Yeah... you do know that "online" is not the real world, right? You need to have a life. A real life.

Oh... you were trying to "insult" me. Sorry it didn't come across. But I'll try to keep that in mind. So in your world, "creaming in your pants" is an insult. I guess I didn't get it because in mine it's actually pretty pleasurable. I'll do my best to act "insulted" next time, if you want.

Hopefully, in the long term, disappearing. The "taboo" of interracial marriages is over. I think that's the start of the end of all races as we know them today. But, of course, even then racists will find something to discriminate others for.

Oh, I'm not trying to insult you. You may be a world-known scientist who is on the verge of discovering the cure for cancer, for all I know. But there are areas in which you have not received an education: morals, ethics, sociology, anthopology, history.... but, most important of all, human interaction. Nothing to be ashamed or insulted about. There are many things I lack education about. I'm really bad at chemistry, for example. And calculus.... oof! Can't tell you how many times I've tried.... We all have our educational weaknesses.

True. But whoever got to determine them sure seems to have been thinking of people like you.

Diversity is indispensable for human survival. It's good for the economy (the most financially advanced cities in the U.S. are also the most diverse). It's good for personal growth. I can't think of anything diversity is bad for...

Nice chat!

 

Oh my God! I actually agree with this. There must be something wrong with me!

Just kidding! Very well put! More concise and to the point than what I wrote. I agree that the importance of racial diversity to our survival is key. Thanks

Now I must go, because I believe I may be developing a 110 degree fever.

 

Your persistent and offensive inaccuracy is noted.

 

Well, we've been to war over it... and we won... Better luck next time!


The moral values are objective. The human race cannot survive isolated. It can only survive by living in communities. So whatever supports the existence and strength of the community of human beings goes into the ethical list called "good", whatever opposes it goes into the "bad" ethical list.

Pretty easy actually.

The Preamble to the Constitution expresses exactly this moral imperative in the following way:





Well, then that thing that the Romans used to do with Lions and people starts to sound fun...

Actually not much. Racists were living in shame before Trump. They'll go back in the shadows and everybody else will act as if they didn't exist. Just like it was in the good ol' days of 6 months ago....


Orwellian? That's funny! What do you think that means? Nobody was as good as Orwell ridiculing racists...


So said the fascists. But they lost the argument...


No. Because you're a racist. All Asians I have ever known personally have been very forward thinking. No racists among them, though. My High-school girlfriend, who was daughter of Chinese immigrants, was maybe too forward thinking...


Your rights end where your neighbors' rights begin. And vice versa.


Yeah... you do know that "online" is not the real world, right? You need to have a life. A real life.


Oh... you were trying to "insult" me. Sorry it didn't come across. But I'll try to keep that in mind. So in your world, "creaming in your pants" is an insult. I guess I didn't get it because in mine it's actually pretty pleasurable. I'll do my best to act "insulted" next time, if you want.


Hopefully, in the long term, disappearing. The "taboo" of interracial marriages is over. I think that's the start of the end of all races as we know them today. But, of course, even then racists will find something to discriminate others for.


Oh, I'm not trying to insult you. You may be a world-known scientist who is on the verge of discovering the cure for cancer, for all I know. But there are areas in which you have not received an education: morals, ethics, sociology, anthopology, history.... but, most important of all, human interaction. Nothing to be ashamed or insulted about. There are many things I lack education about. I'm really bad at chemistry, for example. And calculus.... oof! Can't tell you how many times I've tried.... We all have our educational weaknesses.


True. But whoever got to determine them sure seems to have been thinking of people like you.


Diversity is indispensable for human survival. It's good for the economy (the most financially advanced cities in the U.S. are also the most diverse). It's good for personal growth. I can't think of anything diversity is bad for...

Nice chat![/QUOTE]

I decided not to counter each and every one bit of your post because I feel that talking to you is a waste of my time. I didn't read your post either. I will just quickly summarize my main issues with your points and stances that I gleaned from your other posts.

1. Why do you feel that you get to "educate" racists? How would you feel if I said I would "educate" you so as to turn you into a racist? How would you feel about this?
2. Why do you feel that you get to "ridicule" racists? Don't you realize that this is just another form of bullying? Further, how would you feel if people started ridiculing you for your beliefs?
3. Why do you feel that the government gets to compel private people to be good (aka, be non-racist)? How would you feel if one day animal rightists seized control of our government and started telling everyone that they can't eat meat?
4. How come people can only be racist in private but not in public? Who came up with this rule?


There could be more. But that's it for now. I would love to hear what you have to say about these things I brought up.

 

Well, if you didn't "read" my post, how do you know that the answers to your questions aren't there? And why would I answer them here knowing that you may not even read them?

I'll draft a quick response here. If you want more detail, you'll probably find it in the message you didn't read (I'll color and indent your questions)

1. Why do you feel that you get to "educate" racists? How would you feel if I said I would "educate" you so as to turn you into a racist? How would you feel about this?​

You wouldn't have anything to educate me on. It's obvious that I know more than you about Morals and Ethics. Which is not saying much because any normal 8 year old has a better grasp on morality than any racist.

2. Why do you feel that you get to "ridicule" racists? Don't you realize that this is just another form of bullying? Further, how would you feel if people started ridiculing you for your beliefs?​

I wouldn't ridicule racists. I would ridicule their racism. Ridiculing my beliefs has been attempted. The debate didn't end well for those who have tried, though. Ridiculing me has no effect other than me ridiculing back and both our posts getting deleted by the mods.

3. Why do you feel that the government gets to compel private people to be good (aka, be non-racist)? How would you feel if one day animal rightists seized control of our government and started telling everyone that they can't eat meat?​

Part a: Because it's demanded by morality (as expressed, for example, in the Preamble of COTUS). Part b: I would objectively listen to their moral basis and analyze their logic. Same as I do with everything.

4. How come people can only be racist in private but not in public? Who came up with this rule?​

Those who fought World War II and the American Civil War. Not to mention the Civil Rights events of the 1960s

 

I meant that responding to each and every little thing back and forth in the manner that we had been doing before. I found this to be not very productive and it very possibly confuses other people who read them. But thanks for answering the question I posed to you. Also, apologies for not reading your previous post. You put in the effort to make that post but I chose not to read it.

So....if a racist thinks that you wouldn't have anything to educate him on, that means you would now mind your own business and refrain from educating him? Is this how it works? You also seem to think that as long as you have "superior" morals and ethics (which, by the way, is totally self-diagnosed), you get to become a thought police and tell other people how to think.

Also, why do you think that just because you are an anti-racist, that automatically means you know more than I do about morals and ethics? I noticed that leftists and liberals always think they are intellectually, if not morally, superior to other people. Often when there is no cause for believing so. Furthermore, do you think I care whether you think I have a good grasp on morality or whether I know much about morals and ethics? The answer is I don't. But you keep spewing your worthless opinions in my direction. I don't know why.

And kindly refrain from insulting me in a personal manner. Just because I am a racist it doesn't mean you need to act uncivilized. Civility....I know this is possible for liberals. I hope, anyway.

So....ridiculing other people's beliefs leads to a flame-war type of exchange. Don't you think this is a very uncivilized and unproductive thing to do? Why cant you just leave people alone and let them believe whatever they want to believe? You think that people don't have the freedom of thought? Is this why you take it upon yourself to use social pressure to make sure people think the "correct" (to you) thoughts?

I want to make it very clear: I would never ridicule your beliefs. And it's because I believe people have the freedom of thought. Do you believe this, too, Golem?

Not quite sure what you meant by "its demanded by morality". Also, you did not answer my second question: how would you feel if one day animal rightists seized control of our government and started telling everyone that they can't eat meat?

So....private people (and from bygone eras, to boot) and events from the past get to dictate to present-days citizens in the States what they can or cannot do? Sorry but I don't think this is right.