Thousands rally against Israel in Istanbul

Piankhi sends his regards, wrapped around Ashoka's "what have I done".

Oh, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in angels and demons. Those are metaphors for "absolute good" and "absolute evil". Nobody is entirely good, and nobody is entirely evil.

I'm the last person to propagate Eastern Orthodoxy...

You have a point here, but I still don't like it. I can only hope that Erdogan's maneuvers are destined mostly to curb Kurdish ambitions, not to restore the Ottoman Empire.

I'm afraid it will take a very long time to get all the worms back in the can the civil war in Syria has opened.

Two wrongs don't make a right...

Israel has been warning Europe for decades that terrorism is what's in store for them if they reward terrorists. I don't think there's even one Israeli surprised by the situation in Paris or Barcelona.

There's a huge difference between temporarily suspending some civil liberties due to threats to national security, on the European side, and erasing civil liberties through legislation, on the Turkish side. Erdogan has too much power.

Too much Russian propaganda, perhaps?

I have no love, nor respect, for the bureaucrats in Brussels. I wouldn't like to see the EU on its knees though. There's a great potential there. The EU is a lifeline for many in the poor nations of Eastern Europe.

The European values you talk about are not so clear cut as we see them from afar. The secret of a healthy society is not a rigid system of well defined values, but the ability to compromise. I think that the EU is now learning to compromise the hard way. Mistakes, of course, are being and will be made. Orwellian? Some. Fatal? I sincerely hope not.

In light of very recent events, the reason the West is opposing methods of the East is the well justified fear of renewed waves of refugees pouring into Europe. I don't think the EU really cares about any open aggressive method that wouldn't directly impact its own comfort.

Touchy.

I don't have the time to answer everything. Just tell me what exactly did I miss and I'll do my best to fill the gap.

Drop the "Israeli state propaganda" meme. It's the ultimate argument of those who don't have any other arguments. It doesn't befit you.

If you must know, the persons who turned my point of view into an horizon were one practicing Muslim (Ali Eteraz), one gay Christian Palestinian Arab, and one mostly left-of-center Jewish blogger. The event that triggered the reaction that led me to appreciate this kind of people was the unholy alliance between some Jewish bloggers on the right and the European far right. The mere concept of Jews allied with their worst enemies made my skin crawl, but the reason for this alliance - war against Muslims because they're Muslims - turned my whole world upside down in a way I never thought possible.

I don't know where I'm going to take your answer, how can you know? You have the right to remain silent though.

 

It's in English, not in Hebrew. Complained denied again.
Point proven the bulk of the entire world is condemning the Jew state over and over for violating the GC by ethnic cleansing and thieving land across their borders.

My source says.. and I quote:
This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis.

And the Jew state made it a 100% by making it the law that civilians who left may not return to their own houses if they are Arab.
You lot are being condemned on these warcrimes.

Utterly biased source. Complained denied.

 

There are legal rights in a war. That you lot don't care about the Geneva Conventions is known all to well. But they still are there. Hence the ongoing condemnation on your actions. You know that. But it's just easier for you lot to pretend the entire world hates Jews.

During? The Jew state made it the law that ethnic cleansed civilians and other civilians who fled, were banned to return to their own houses... AFTER the war.

No no... the world made Israel the most condemned nation. You can end that finger pointing towards Muslims on this on. You Jews are responsible for your own actions.

 

I have no complaints except your lack of comprehension, lack of conversancy, and mischaracterization of your own links.

Not true again Yemen guy.

"Even if Israel is NOT the cause of the Arab refugee problem, didn't they do anything to compensate those people?

As a goodwill gesture during the Lausanne negotiations in 1949, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees
prior to any discussion of the refugee question.
The Arab states, who had Refused even to negotiate face-to-face with the Israelis, turned down the offer because it implicitly recognized Israel's existence.

Despite this, on Humanitarian grounds Israel has since the 1950's allowed more than 50,000 refugees to return to Israel under a family reunification program, and between 1967 and 1993 allowed a further 75,000 to return to the West Bank or Gaza. Since the beginning of the Oslo process Israel has allowed another 90,000 Palestinians to gain residence in PA-controlled territory.

Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. As of the end of 1993, a total of 14,692 claims had been filed, claims were settled with respect to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New Israeli Sheckels) had been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000 dunums of Replacement Land had been given in compensation.

Israel has followed this generous policy despite the fact that not a single penny of compensation has ever been paid to any of the more than 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were forced by the Arab governments to abandon their homes, businesses and savings."

- Alexander Safian, PhD,​

Your problem 'refugee' guy,
You can't handle Benny Morris. THEE most famous historian of the conflict.
You lost.
It's the 6-day War/slaughter all over again.

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees… while it is we who made them to leave…
We brought disaster upon… Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave…
We have rendered them dispossessed…
We have accustomed them to begging…
We have participated in lowering their moral and social level…
Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon… men, women and children - all in service of political purpose...

– Khaled al Azm, Syria‘s Prime Minister after the 1948 war[/isize]

​

Thanks again for unwittingly let me use your empty posting to billboard the Zionist cause! Last word away!
+

 

Two things I'll never be jealous of is:

1) your inability to write something of intelligence or value
2) your fellow muslims' endless blood lust for murder

How was your driving through Barcelona today, good boy? When will it be your turn to run some civilian women and children over?

 

Your claim that the UN, the UNSC and the ICJ is like a popularity contest is not founded on anything but your silly personal opinion. I've been waiting for a comment on this. But nothing. So you lost this conversation that the world indeed fairly condemned Israel on violating the GC by having ethnic cleansed parts of the WB/Golan/East Jerusalem to let their civilians thieve it by living there.

Nothing you put up denies the Jew State did not made it the law that ethnic cleansed Arabs civilians may not return to their own houses because of their ethnicity. Complained dismissed Aron.

Condemnation of the Jew state and the Jews ethnic cleansing Arabs stands firmly.

I'm not dismissing Benny Morris. I have dismissed your source. That zionist one, and now this peacefaq. If you're just citing from extremely iffy to known utterly biases sites... than this gets real old real fast.

In no way does this dismiss wikipedia and it's footnotes or my even pro Israel source of http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ that I sourced.

 

Classic. A supporter of the ethnic cleansing policy of Israel making a personal attack first.

Israeli Jews violently oppress Muslims and kill far more Muslims than the other way around.

 

Two things I'll never be upset about """ARE"""

1) Morons trying to puke sh.t at me when they can't even get few words together properly
2) ISHRAEL's stupid trolls attempting to post a reply...

How was your driving through Gaza Strip today Yimmi boy? When will it be your turn to steal organs from the dead bodies of innocent children?

 

English is not my mother tongue. Sometimes I just don't understand subtleties.

The "twice on Sunday" stuff is easy to explain: it's just a manner of speaking, meant to emphasize, to show the importance of the matter discussed without using seriously boring words. Kinda verbal spice.

Do I have to? Please don't make me

Imperialistic desires are Erdogan's, not Turkey's, and I don't associate them with "Turkish interests", only with Erdogan's vision of those interests.

Some of your post is pretty heavy stuff. I'll have to think about it and do my own research.

The recent terror attacks in Spain, Finland, and apparently Germany, have left me drained and weary. Turkey and the rest of the Middle East will wait until I have recovered my wits.

So true...

Remember that "Turkey learned from its enemies" stuff?

Of course, Germany is not really your enemy. That's Turkey's choice, not Germany's.

 

Mehmed the Conqueror was a merciful conqueror. He tried to preserve the existing culture. Then went past beyond it and got some of it poured into what he was brought up by, the Turko-Persian culture, by having himself portrayed:



That's a true "cultural and religious" revolution you're looking at in the above picture... Indigenous to this land only... Wahhabis seeing us Turks as "infidels" just like they see Europeans or Russians, because of the effect of that said revolution there. Guess what? Sunni Muslim theology says you can't have no tombstones on a grave of your relative, let alone having stylish stones with pictures, markings, symbols, written poets, names and stuff all over'em. Having such graves are COMPLETELY out of Islam.

That's why the graveyards in Saudi Arabia serve according to the core religious rituals... the rituals that have been there since 600s AD :

Here's an example to what Islam really orders to all Muslims... This is what it's SUPPOSED TO BE:




Now, take a look at Turkish graveyards from Anatolia:


1) Ucler Mezarligi Konya (Konya is considered as the most radical conservative religious population in Turkiye)



2) Erzurum (East Anatolia)



3) Istanbul:





5) Erdogan's family:




No need to mention having tons of Jewish, Christian and Freemason cemeteries all over Turkiye which is also against Islam...

But this one's real cool so I'll just share it. It's from Uskudar, Istanbul (Where Erdogan also has a Residence)



Farsi Ottoman words all over it... But the sun symbol, and the symbol of the divine agreement/Testament is rather shiny Yes, it's a Freemason tombstone...

Why it is a sin to have tombstones, symbols or portrayals over the graves? Because it may evoke some pre-monotheism pagan rituals of the region and that would have had some devastating affects on the newly built religion. Ablution? Oh that's pretty pagan either but you need it because the society you control don't even know how to use water in cleaning wise. Fasting? That too.

These pagan stuff were adapted by the original Abrahamic core in the first place tho... Should keep that in mind.

So what I'm trying to say is, the attribution of "religious radicalism" to Turkish nation is nothing but an absolute nonsense... It's no different than calling me from Turkiye and telling me in shock that the Emevi Mosque in Syria got bombed while me having my sandwich at the front yard and chilling with friends and making plans to walk around see some more stuff there... Because unlike many think, a lie won't be turned into a truth just by repeating it so many times, particularly not with the Turks and Turkiye because their historical ties with the land is much deeper and longer than many other nations have with their own lands. So nobody can just throw it in the garbage like they did in Syria... Not gonna happen. This dictator crap is the same. The entire western world is becoming more autocratic but the losers would love to think their sh.t don't stink if they ignore and point the other's sh.t... Nope... That won't change the fact that Europe is turning into an autocratic sh.t hole in the first place. Sorry...

So you don't believe in god either because you're simply a "nonbeliever". For a person to be a total "nonbeliever", that person "must be" "extremely materialistic" because not believing is rejecting everything out of the 5 senses as they are forming the ultimate base for the reality perceived. So what about the "cat in the box"? Is it dead? or alive?

That's very close to what I always say; nobody's having no intentions for restoring anything with the Ottomans here. But that doesn't mean we just stop with following our own geopolitical reality just because a part of it overlaps 19th century Ottoman foreign politics. Actually I should thank you because you just gave me an opportunity to make something else clear here:

There are two terms used commonly and they are seen "intertwined" by some people who generally claims Turkiye today is following an imperial agenda in Syria. Now, our first term is "Ottoman Imperialism" which simply refers to a non-existing Turkish agenda of conquering Ottoman epoch lands from Balkans to Middle East by weakening them governments and stuff. This term, although being ridiculous big time, is at least referring something more indigenous to Turkiye.

However the second one, "Neo-Ottomanism", surprisingly to some, in fact has nothing indigenous to Turkish politics at all. The term is actually referring to the agenda that has strong emphasis on the "sociocultural and ecopolitical" inputs of the Ottoman Empire over the lands it once controlled. Such a great effort was put for this during the first decade of the Erdogan's rule essentially because Turkiye back then was subjected to the Western/Globalist agendas almost in every possible way. The West pushed for "Neo-Ottomanism" in such sense because the said inputs were the "only" tools that could have created some "common" values for the entire target region. The target region by the way was spreading over a vast land starting from Albania in the west, passing through Anatolia towards the Caspian till it meets Azerbaijan, then turns down south to Basra, then goes westward all the way to Morocco... That's the land the Ottomans controlled for 4 centuries.

What's really interesting here is the fact that no matter what religion those post-Ottoman countries today are dominated by, the majority of populations are still having cultural similarities. Add to that some key attitudes like "laziness, strong collectivism, structural patriarchy, etc", it would be real stupid if failed to use such Ottomanic inputs to make possible common socio-cultural values getting embodied in this vast land of bunch of ethnic groups from the globalists stand point because such common ground would just perfectly fit in. All you needed to do was to erode those Wilsonian principles to pave way the flow of that famous internationalist river...

That was the key to have control over the central Asian resources because successful implication of Neo-Ottomanism would have meant much more than having a poor "lonely outpost" in the middle of the valley of the jackals as today's KRG. It would have meant a huge, officially recognized confederation of states that has a direct ""physical"" and political tie with the European continent, therefore with the European Union itself; such would have been called "The Near East Confederation". A perfect jumping board, hitting dozens of birds with a single throw of a stone. That would have granted globalists a "physical access" to Asia, would have rendered them to turn the "unfit populations" of the "rural" middle east into slaves of 9-5 western corporatism in a much quicker and cheaper way, therefore those populations would have been enabled to be used as human resources pool in a much qualified and much effective way; such access would have given the opportunity to block China and Russia from entering the region, therefore would have eventually made them surrender to the Globalist West... The birds can easily be multiplied but ain't nobody got time fo dat...

Turkiye's contribution to the agenda had the utmost importance among all the building blocks. Without it, nothing could have been made possible in that sense. So? Turkiye had to be readied to be able to serve as a role model in Neo-Ottomanic terms to the said region.

The year 1993 was marking a turning point for that:
Series of assassinations of prominent public figures having political tendency of "independent Turkiye" were followed by peaked "ethnic" terrorism hitting mostly the south east of the country put the public into a huge social shock, while financial crisis of the consecutive years (1994-1995) and ""deep state scandals"" (Susurluk scandal) of the following (1996 is the year the term deep state was first coined), the entire nation was shaken to the core via the help of MSM pumping the necessity of "new" leadership and new understanding because we needed "new Turkiye" (Yeni Turkiye). It sure couldn't have been an independent Turkiye because Turkiye had friends like EU and the US, both of which did not of course bother all this to put the country in such a turmoil because they wanted an "independent", "democratic", "secular", "social-law-state" that Ataturk pointed out many times when he was alive. Such Turkiye means "strong" Turkiye and such ""independent"" strength means uncontrollable power. Think of there's a stray lion travelling next to you, could you feel secured while its behavior was unpredictable like that? No. Considering the middle east's geopolitical importance, an independent Turkiye is a stray lion to the west.

Therefore there must always be some grand agenda that not only ties Turkiye to the western shores but also keeps it in a safe distance while it's being made a role model to the Middle East for the aforementioned reasons. The illusion of EU was used by the west for this purpose for years. Thanks to that turmoil window, it just made way to the garden of roses without thorns, beginning with the Erdogan's epoch. It was like an invisible hand organizing things in an order:
a) Elimination of the individuals that could have had potential to jeopardize the agenda
b) Play the ethnic terror card for future use to create public awareness for a 100% synthetic "problem" that they hadn't known existing.
c) Bring forth financial crisis immediately afterwards to demolish what's left from once was a "social-state" via almost "give away" privatizations.

Here are some examples for a)

-Ugur Mumcu: Journalist. Authored many books about US imperialism and how it infiltrated to Turkish political system. Before he got assassinated he was gathering documents for FETO organization and how it was being used by the US.
-Adnan Kahveci: Parliament Member. A prominent guy worked on stuff that would gain Turkiye more independence.
-Turgut Ozal: President of the Republic. He was pro-American for a decade but the last couple of years during his term he made a sharp U turn and supported army generals who were getting Barzani and Talabani to Turkiye's side.
-Esref Bitlis: General of Turkish Gendarmerie forces. One of those generals Ozal started to support. He went to Northern Iraq and made a deal with Barzani, whom back then was no more than a tribesman, for allowing Turkish army having ""67"" army outposts at "where ever" the Turkish army sees a necessity for them. According to deal, Turkish army could have turned those outposts into "military bases" anytime. That tribesman was owning vast lands right at the 36th parallel which declared by the US for limiting Saddam's entry. Esref Bitlis was a genius. He knew Americans wouldn't have allowed no Turkish army in Northern Iraq and he dodged Americans by siding with Barzani. When Ozal was pro-American, he gave Barzani and Talabani ""red passports"" of Republic of Turkiye so they could have visited the US with no problem. Now they were changing sides and getting close to Turkish army. Too dangerous for the US. Esref Bitlis's plane crashed.
-Cem Ersever: Major in Turkish army. Assassinated on the street in Ankara. He had "spy rings" in PKK, reporting directly to him. He wrote a book based on those reports called; "Ucgendeki Tezgah" (Scam in the Triangle). He couldn't see it was published because America didn't like it. But thankfully he secured the documents so somebody else gave a hand to it and it got published. So he didn't die for nothing. A true patriot.

I'd like to touch upon what new millennia has brought and how we ended up here but I got no time left for that.

Erdogan's incapable of maneuvering.

Let me do this real quick:

Two wrongs don't make a right...
Turkiye has been warning Europe for decades that terrorism is what's in store for them if they reward terrorists. I don't think there's even one Turk surprised by the situation in Paris or Barcelona.

Lol... Let's discuss WHY it is erasing civil liberties through legislation(as if there are liberties being erased through something else) on the Turkish side and it is """NOT""" due to threats to Turkish national security... Make sure you remind your cat about the location of the bombed parliament building...

Thanks.

Some? I don't know why but you just sound like this:

No no mommy, itz juzt a little Orwellian, and it'z a kutie little one, not da bad ugly Orwellian monsterz thiz Turko haz in Turkiye...

hahahah... I like that...

 

I don't think state of emergency in France got that much to do with the influx. Open Aggressive Method (OAM) is not consisting only measures taken against refugees. The influx is just a little reason for them to be aware of the shift was there and they had to comply. It was a little push... Other than that, EU is totally aware of what it should be doing with the "potential" risky group, whom are mostly against authority at the core. I don't think some of those raids in France were to get illegal radicals... That's a cover up and I got stuff to prove.

I think you got the reason for that alliance wrong. Fascism is fascism in everywhere, regardless of religion, language, ethnicity, race... Jewish fascists and German Nazis are SSDC (Same Sh.t Different Country)

You gotta lot to catch up Pisa pisa...

 

Mother tongue... If I was from Florence Alabama I'd be cracked up to that but thanks god I don't roll tide... That's not me... I'm Braves and what that means is we got Alpha city called Atlanta... You know Lil Wayne? Like ATL btch stuff? That's what's up with me right there yo pretty and I aint sh.ttin wittcha naw...



Aint no photoshop or sommin... He the man... Isn't he the coolest? Anyways, at the end of the day an olympic city like ATL happens to be a little cosmopolitan... So that tongue is no problem... Just make sure you stay away from Sholes of the Muscle... Lol...

Oh please feel free to fix anything makes you comfy there... Start with cherry on top then maybe go down to the meat balls... I don't care...

Hahaha... Sorry jiji but you seriously got a lot to catch up with Turkiye... I don't know, change your sources, try some out of MSM Turkish origin ones, get them translated if you have to, I'm sure google translate would be enough to help if you bother to use it creatively. Try other languages if you don't trust Turkish-English translation. That's pretty much what I do with foreign stuff. Because as long as you follow Washington post updates, which Michael Rubin sort of dudes are in charge of some editorial about Turkey, you won't be able to break the ever spinning circle of BS stories. No good because you're just wasting your valuable vision. Look I opened up good so far with bunch of stuff mostly about Turkiye. Moi couldn't get a bit of it at that thread. Not his fault tho the subject just didn't get me into it. He's one cool educated dude... So use me Pisani... Study some and come back... Lol

Damn...if only Id seen this before so I'd make sure I wouldn't even post the latest one, the one with the Fatih's portrait... That must have felt even heavier... Lol... I just can't help jiji... It flows like a smooth and cool wide stream...

Oh no we don't need you to lose it for good... We can't afford to lose you... Please go ahead and cool that engine down... You can always barrow one of my superchargers tho... I got biturbo...

You really wouldn't want to hurt your very hardly earned reputation that fast...

Please...

 

Of course. That's why Erdogan's rise to almost absolute power took many by surprise.

Thank you for the cultural tour. I didn't know about the austere burial habits of the Wahhabi.

"They"?

Are there still tribes in Turkey? Or clans? (not talking about criminal gangs clans).

I think you understand where I'm taking it. Syrians (like Iraqis and Libyans) are not quite nations, are they?

I don't see Europe turning into an autocratic whatever. Russian propaganda again?

No, not the 5 senses alone. Nobody can understand quantum physics, for instance, based on the 5 senses.

I'm not "extremely materialistic". Lack of belief in gods does not equal lack of spiritual life.

How many journalists have been thrown in jail in EU countries?

You're welcome.

Didn't you mean "your human"?

The Iranian Parliament? What's that got to do with civil liberties in Turkey?

You missed my point. Democracy can't function without compromises. Mistakes are made, sure, but as long as there's an independent judiciary and free public debate, the Orwellian monster is kept at bay. Our Supreme Court has no problem ruling against the government. Can the Turkish Supreme Court, or whatever you call it, rule against the government? And if it does, how long until the judges are thrown in jail?

Dictatorship doesn't allow for compromises (there's nobody different left on the political scene to compromise with), for independent judiciary, or for free public debate. This is where Turkey is headed.

Prove whatever you think you can prove. I don't agree with you here, but this can't be discussed in a paragraph or two.

Jewish fascists are not antisemitic...

Pamela Geller is not fascist. She's on the right side of the right, true, but she's not fascist. That's why I was shocked to read her reply to a comment by another bewildered reader who inquired about the odd alliance. I don't remember the exact words, but the gist of it was that "we Jews and the fascist far-right must fight together against the common enemy". Guess who the common enemy is.

I think we all know how the fascist far-right fights against its enemies.

Tread lightly.

MSM Turkish? Jailed journalists, hello? Not trustworthy.

I used to read the English version of Hurriyet. Not anymore.

I don't read Michael Rubin.

I'll read some Barry Rubin though. Must make some time for it.

No, it wasn't heavier, it was refreshing. And maddening at the same time, because now we have to side with the Wahhabi instead of our traditional moderate Turkish allies. Damn Erdogan.

Whenever I say something bad about Turkey, I mean Erdogan. Just so you know.

 

@goody

I noticed you have a tendency to blame everything on the West, globalists, deep state.

While I agree that Western countries are influential actors on the international scene, I don't see them acting together as a united entity with common purpose.

Not sure who the "globalists" are. Soros is as much a globalist as the Wahhabi or Putin.

As for the deep state...well, the general idea of a large group of people constantly working together as one from the shadows is a bit too much for me. I don't believe in the existence of a deep state. I believe that a small group of people might work together for a limited period of time to achieve a well defined goal, like the derin devlet group did.

 

Um, no ... Why should I? I dont care for Turkish conspiracy theories. I told you before, the PKK is forbidden since 1993 in Germany. Kalifatstaat is forbidden since 2001. Why should I answer off topic irrelevant ****?

No.

 

Hitler was not democratically elected, that's a myth. His Nazi party won only about one third of the votes. He was appointed Kanzler by the president following some behind the curtains deals between politicians.

 

Correct they got about 33% of votes and were strongest party, but had not enough for taking over the power alone (= needing 51% of votes) , but at least it was a common and legal democratic act which was done by forming a coalition with some other minor parties... and with those democratic countries who have more as 2 parties to vote a still common act to raise power after election ... because rarely that one party got over 50% of votes!

 

Listen, I kindda start liking you. So believe me you'd be better off dropping that uneducated German farmer attitude with me, it just doesn't look good on you. So you must understand how essential it is to start "LEARNING" rather than keeping these on:



So since we got this newly blooming friendship, I'll do you a favor and get those blinkers off for you so you can see. Here, let me do this:





In case you need translation;

The mag's publish day: October 20th, 1996.
Volume: 487
The header reads: "We are releasing the secret message: Abramowitz is readying Tayyip(Erdogan) for Erbakan's place"
The man in the picture is Tayyip Erdogan.

To give people who are seriously illiterate of Turkiye a little insight; (unfortunately there are a lot of'em in here, apparently including you)

Necmettin Erbakan was the founder and the leader of the conservative party called Refah Party and the general social conservative movement called Millî Görüş (National Vision). He was representing part of coalition formed with central-right DYP which was led by a woman called Tansu Ciller. She was secular, educated in American schools and by their think tanks. Refah's Erbakan was the Prime Minister of the country while Tansu Ciller was the deputy.

(Previously, she was the Prime Minister of Turkiye from 1993 to March 1996. Recall the assassinations scandals and massacres we had starting from 1993, and spread to entire second half of the decade. Yes, first woman Prime Minister of Turkiye, she got elected way before many EU countries had female heads of states like Germany, and Switzerland, and considering countries never have one like the US, Greece, Italy, Spain, it's telling a lot about Turkish democracy but still, a puppet is always a puppet regardless of gender, race, culture, religion, status etc... So it's no surprise a project coalition of conservatives and secularists came after what I named before; "a rose garden without thorns". It was all begun during her term in 1993.)

Erbakan was a Professor. Once upon a time he was used by the US for counterbalancing Soviet cliques in the country. His party's name was different though, it was called "Milli Selamet Party" (National Salvation Party). He was a product of the US made "Green Belt Project". Erbakan's youth during the 6th Fleet's Istanbul visit got ready for two things:
1-) Kissing American ass in Dolmabahce, meeting with American soldiers, and painting the walls of the brothels for their convenience (absolutely NO joke) and,
2-) Beating the sh.t out the protesters who were marching down in mass numbers from Taxim square to Dolmabahce dock for confronting American Marines, with chants and slogans like; "Independent Turkiye forever", "Yankee go home", "Down with imperialism", "Free Turkiye", "Ataturk's Turkiye" etc...

Many protesters were hospitalized, 2 got stabbed to death, hundreds injured. The day was named by the media and the public as "Bloody Sunday". (Google Bloody Sunday Turkey you'll find two. 16th Feb is the one)

Now let's see some prominent members of Erbakan's youth movement called "Milli Turk Talebe Birligi" (National Turkish Students Union) back in the 60's:

Abdullah Gül (America's Prime Minister of new Turkiye 2002, then foreign minister, then president of the republic), Mehmet Ali Şahin (President of the Parliament, held seat in Erdogan's cabinet numerous times as minister), Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (No need to mention), Bulent Arinc (Minister of state, deputy Prime Minister), Beşir Atalay (Internal Affairs), Ömer Dinçer (Social Security Minister), Taner Yıldız (Energy resources minister), İsmail Kahraman (Head of Culture Department and President of the Parliament even today), Abdülkadir Aksu (Internal affairs), Hüseyin Çelik (Department of Education)

All these people, some you know some you don't, but all of them served together in many cabinets of Erdogan, whom was announced by the magazine up there as the candidate of the US (Abramowitz) for the new millennia coming up. As FDR put, "nothing is coincidence in politics". Erdogan was meant to be the president of Turkiye, he was picked for this purpose only and I believe the pick was made way before the publish date of the mag. His cabinet was picked for him from the American backed "National Turkish Students Union". They were all rewarded in 2000s because they showed their loyalty to the US at that Bloody Sunday. America knew that it would be seeking some "strong trustworthy and loyal" allies in Turkiye when the day comes. "The day" was heralded by the 9/11 inside job, and it was marked the time for Turkiye to have those loyal pro-US guys to finally take over Turkiye.

Because political conjunctures were changing, American backed coup has already taken over the country in 1980 but there were too many things to be done sociopolitically to put the country on that desired track. Soviet bloc jumped off the bridge, so Erbakan had to change accordingly. He didn't pick the route highlighted for him by the US, but instead wanted to be going with the nationalistic vein the country has developed very strongly during that global Wilsonian era; "Unitary Independence".
Professor Erbakan's National Vision had within many different hard conservative elements scaled from extreme right to central right. In a much surprising sense he back then was able to gather some leftist support, mostly from German social democrats and the-likes from all around the world including the Turkish ones, due to his successful emphasis of victimization which was alleging the Muslims were being oppressed by Kemalists, secular wing and the military generals. His extremist groups were structuring a greater base overall. Within these extremes there were pure ultra nationalist factions who described themselves as they were Muslim as Cave Hira of the Prophet Mohammad and Turks as Mount Tengri (Tian Shan) of Mete Han.

There were as well some heavy Islamists who described themselves as they were only Muslims therefore were bound to no national identities whatsoever other than the Prophet's ummet (ummah). The latter was much greater of a populous at that dangerously formed political base of the Refah Party. What was worrying the US was this doctrine, the National Vision, and the turn it takes because the Professor was a smart guy and had already shown some tendencies to use it to have the Ummet in Anatolia blended with the Mount Tengri's Turks to form a greater base with heavy nationalistic components. Considering Erbakan's very sincere relationships with infamous anti-US leaders, particularly with Qaddafi whom many times was hosted at state residences for stay overs by Erbakan, such a hard line nationalistic political base could have resulted with a Qaddafi-like order in Turkiye, which was pretty much being served with strong social-state measures on a super plate of institutional nationalizations widely spread to almost every sector and industry that were of crucial importance to the EU/US companies for them being able to have control over a country in favor of Western grand agendas.

So, there the so called "Progressive Islam" has finally put in action. It was to ease the undesired impacts of the aforementioned nationalistic components and eventually to make an example, a role model if you will, out of a country which, politically speaking, was torn apart between the East and the West, like Turkiye. Such an ease comes with advantages to Western agendas like blocking institutional nationalizations, making privatization possible to spread across all sectors. The ease would moreover render those aggressive anti-Western tendencies getting cut off naturally from then strongly developing political base, breaking off potential resistance in it, bringing forth some new measures that are easily taken without compromising "the main cause" which was to attempt to start an "evangelical" approach in Islam at the bottom of all. Evangelical Islam starts with eroding "the place of the prophet" in Islam first because it is considered being the actual source for conserving strongly the hardcore Islamic values which actually are demanded to be evolved into more western-like religious terms. Those "values" were born of Sunnet (Sunnah) which simply is a term used to mark prophet's attitudes, behaviors, and his own original implementations and understanding of Islam. This hardcore stuff not only makes it impossible for Islam to be compatible with today's corporate slavery, but it also buries its potential for evolving into a something getting along well with other 2 major ones for all in the future to starting a global religious movement that is desired to be "supposedly" uniting the humanity. Why supposedly? Because expecting such movement developing naturally without no influence of the elitist dogs and their masters is unrealistic. Of course having 1.6 billion followers will always be an obstacle here but you must start off somewhere right?

So in the light of all these, the agenda requires a weakening of the core. How do you do it? By demonizing the core itself. How? Forming a terror organization that claims they are the only ones walking on the prophet's path but nobody is the first step. Then get them conducting mass killings of the ones belong to the same belief system (Muslims) in order to create mass "awareness" raising from "within" against that hardcore "Sunnah" values so that you can "isolate" the core from the vast majority of Muslims. This is not even a quarter of one side (1/8th) of a coin. You can jump on from agenda to agenda. Next phase is to form up teams to use the terror group to manipulate demographics. You can also direct killings accordingly to target demographics to make them pick in between "leaving or dying". You can use the group as a proxy to shape up the entire region in your own favor. Anybody hesitates siding with you or play by the rules you set? Divert your demons to Nice, Istanbul, Berlin, Brussels, London, Orlando etc. Are there others who fail to comply with? Send them to Tehran, Istanbul again, Moscow, Manchester, Barcelona, etc. Mobilization is your middle name, private yachts, jets, secret locations, hidden coves, politicians, diplomats all yours. Nobody notices where your guys pop up from. Media tells what you tell them so does the stupid trolls in "somewhat public" forums.

But I digress... Bigly... So this global "Progressive Islam" movement, fueled by supposed "dialogue groups" who have long been funded and sponsored by Open Society Institution, started to spread like a virus from North America to the rest of the world, particularly effecting Turkiye and its surroundings. In order for the core to get demonized, Turkiye's regime has to be adjusted beforehand because you wouldn't want to take no risks from the Turks who are there seeking the right moment to make their moves while you're killing a million of Iraqis. So you want a regime that causes no trouble in the coming up millennia. That's why you started making proper adjustments. Erbakan's gotta go, Tansu is too weak, she can bow to Kemalist military anytime to save her family. But there's this guy who's hungry, good at speeches, can influence millions easily, young, smart, greedy, such a talent, if could be fit in this brand new "progressive background", would be making a perfect candidate for America's Turkiye. He's Erdogan of the ADL (Anti Defamation League)



The guy of the most prominent WESTERN cliques. This guy could make dreams come true, by starting to erode Kemalism in Turkiye. Imprisoning thousands of Kemalist soldiers, lawyers, teachers, prosecutors, officials, diplomats, generals, doctors, journalists... All done by the orders of whom brought him to the power (see above picture)... When Balyoz and Ergenekon trials were started, the West was playing the 3 monkeys. Maybe because they were truly monkey breeds like some Nazi leftovers of this forum, who knows, but the fact of the matter is, when those Kemalists from all occupations, mostly journalists and military officials, were dying in the prisons the West and their dogs didn't even make a tiny bit of a sound that could be heard from sh.t holes all over the web as today... When those, "once-imprisoned" managed to demolish the walls of the prisons in 2014 and start a huge counter attack back against the ones who imprisoned them, the barks could be heard rising like hellish songs from the pounds of the West...

All in all, your "many" can be anybody, but not the US, the EU and the ones got caught up in their sphere of influence...

Oh, you're most welcome... I enjoy educating the educated

 

That "they" there was to refer the planners I guess. Can't remember now.

Yes there are still tribes in Turkiye. Actually I should start writing in-depth analysis for this one either but the above one worn me out a little.
So I'll cut it short: Kurdish tribes are everywhere in Turkiye. They do what their leader tells them to do. The leader is almost a god to them. They are all inured to this very idea that the leader of their tribe, given the common name of Aga, has almost all the rights over their lives. He literally owns them. Aga got houses, horses, lands, villages, "wives", dozens of children, cars, everything... He owns all these including the people living on his lands and in his properties (villages). If the villagers are lucky, they can be recognized as "marabas" (sharecroppers) by the Aga. Otherwise, their asses are owned as long as they live there and guess what, the movies of the 70's and 80s in Turkiye emphasized on this in an attempt to draw public attention to this sick feudal order in 20th century Turkiye but it backfired as many Kurdish villagers chose to "migrate" big cities, turning them into mega villages with ghettos and slums popping up from almost every district. Hundreds of thousands migrated to Germany. Great majority of Kurds have still allegiance to their tribes (asirets) even they don't recognize it no longer after they moved in cities. One asiret in Turkiye has 3 million population, in more than 15 cities, called Izol. The other one got 2.5 million, Ertushi. Only these two (families/asirets) alone have a population greater than many EU states.

I agree, Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans are not quite like nations and I strongly stress that it is the main factor why they got what they got today. They missed the Wilsonian phase big time, Baath was brought up but it was good for a short while because no total war means no suffering, and no suffering means no or very weak public response to the revolutionary measures. It would have faded away and that's exactly what happened.
The fact of the matter is, if the British didn't stick their noses here and instead supported the Kemalist order to seek common grounds with it for how to handle the Middle East, how to share it and how to make it maybe today's Dubai, then Israel wouldn't have needed to be the rabid dog that constantly bites everybody regardless, would have been free of antipathy that hurts it the most today, Syria and Iraq wouldn't have been such a blood shed and Iran wouldn't have been demonized. Because a Kemalist Turkiye would have been the perfect role model for the Middle Eastern populations, not the "Progressive Muslim Turkiye"... That's a huge fckin blunder right there before us.

Yes Russian propaganda again. I couldn't find anything better so I go with Russian propaganda. I can't help it, it's like an addiction to their beautiful ladies.

Way way way wait.... Hahahah... What now?

I think you should study some terminology because you just don't seem you know what you're talking about because when you say you are an atheist, then that means you have a world view in a total "materialistic" sense. The reason for that is hidden in the term:
Theist = Believer. "A-theist" = "Not-theist" = "Nonbeliever" = "Rejecting all beliefs"

The only way for you to be able to reject a belief in god is through "materialistic" approach and absolutely nothing else. Try backing your argument that rejects the existence of god in a non-materialistic way. You will fail. So yes, you are materialistic and believe me you, bringing up double slit's observer effect wouldn't change nothing about that. You give yourself away jiji...

I can see that strong conscience within you is pushing a sense of guilt even when thinking about the idea of rejecting "the belief", let alone using a materialistic approach, which would be enough to make you feel terribly bad, as if you are stabbing an innocent cute little helpless kitty there... I can see through you... See your true colors... You're not it... You're weak...

Last time I checked our constitution didn't have no articles stating "journalists are immune to any crime" and that constitution is still all good for the EU criteria, except the "description of terror". Surprisingly, EU tells us to "narrow" down the description of terrorists and terror activities while England sort of "still EU" countries are passing complete Orwellian anti-terror acts. Would you like me to share them all here? Hmm?

How many journalists KILLED in Israel in the last couple of years? Again, ""KILLED""... I'm not even asking the ones jailed and tortured to death in Israel....

No, you're welcome...

I think you start falling apart following a complex discussion... Lol... No, I didn't mean the cat on the Lisa's lap, I meant the cat in the box which you failed to grasp the reason why I might have asked if it was dead or alive in the first place. That cat...
Because if it is alive, there's good chance for it to be aware of the below reply:

Continued from the above reply; NO... Turkish Parliament... I kind of guessed you might not know Turkish Parliament was bombed by F-16s during the coup because it was all too obvious you've been brainwashed by MSM. If they don't tell you about it, you don't even recall it. If they tell you it was a false flag, you repeat accordingly. Simple. No desire of learning, typical biased western attitude.

And it got a lot to do with civil liberties in Turkiye. We got state of emergency you know. You want me to share stories from some house raids under state of emergency France?

Yes they can. They actually ruled that AKP was "the center of actions against secularism". In the light of the above reply to your first quote (the one with the mag), that rule was to ease the public reaction that was strongly growing against AKP rule at the time. The patriots started a civil resistance (look up: Cumhuriyet Mitingleri) America couldn't afford to lose its government and decided to take steps to ease the reaction. Why do I say so? Because although being "the center of actions against secularism" could be enough of a reason to "close down" AKP, it is at the same time NOT so sufficient to do so. Add to this HUGE reactions from European Union, following the court's rule was impossible. What? You didn't know EU was crying when they saw the court's rule? Ask Terry Davis... How about German government which was booing the court who ruled against AKP back then? Sounds impossible right? Those Nazis were the best friends of Erdogan back then because he was following their agendas not ours... Besides Merkel herself, Thomas Steg also said Germany was too worried about the court's rule... Them sons of hoes...

 

Hahah... Sounds like a Manda-Left to me...

I think it's time to unplug you from that small matrix. Whatever is not praising the good of total humanity, whatever is "taking measures" against freedom of "any human", whatever is "limiting" human ability to do anything, and whatever is preventing human from doing it desires to do, that's fascism... So, Manda-lefts got no different than NAZIs when those morons are anti-muslim or anti-immigration or pro-travelbans.

Hitler got no different than the Jewish rightists regardless of the point they stand on the spectrum. Actually from these so called liberals to what you name'em as "far right", big part of the spectrum is fascist to the core! A liberals can be pro-ban within public spaces and can argue that's for the good of the public itself; but that liberal can't even figure he's also pro-limitation. Any kind of limitation is a "bad" limitation because no human being has any birth given right to direct another human to do something. So, whichever those political stances on the spectrum are defining "equality" within the same limitations, they have no difference whatsoever. Be it nationalism, racism, state socialism, socialism or social democracy, etc...

Now, what I explained up there is the ideological look of the truest left which is considered by many as extreme extreme extreme left, also known as Individualistic Anarchism. I don't even mention how it sees hierarchy and how synthetic it is to human nature. It's important because that alone can help understanding what stand really is fascist while it appears not. What is society? Are we meant to be living together? What might that "meant to be" refer to? Could we be doomed to be living together? Do we have a choice? If not what kind of society should it be? Morals? Taboos? Rules? Transactions? Money?

Me is Turkish patriot, a true fascist, because I believe in retaliation... I have no shame to say I am a fascist because I have no problem with where I fall to when I support and argue my point, unlike the Manda-left morons who are even afraid of their shadows. I gave him time and place to confront me, in his own country, he didn't show up. Just like his ancestors, they are stupid cowards who only know to round up Jews and torture them to death. Pathetic pigs.
However, since wonder is my surname, I read a lot. A smart and educated soldier is the one that is the most powerful... Figure the hardest one out, the rest is just toy...

OK Rattle Snake...

Very unfortunate...

Because this quote shows you don't even read my replies. Please make sure you're replying to something relevant. Did I say "follow Turkish MSM"? Or, might there be two words when come together form a negative in meaning like: """OUT OF"""

If you did you would have known why I brought up his name... But who cares...

Who are you jiji? Mossad? Why don't you come closer, so you can hear me without me shouting at you

I know, that's why I start thinking it is not even worth discussing things with this kind of a memorized state narrative...
You should be able to go much deeper than Erdogan but jiji's capability is limited... Maybe jiji starts reading some Proudhon

 

I've explained why the GC convention doesn't apply in my own words, as well as citing a source.
I've explained that the anti-Israel sides starts every vote with at least 57 Muslim nations
You are/remain a non-conversant UNRWA high school 'palestinian' supporter.

I several times exposed your lie that Israel "ethnically cleansed" 700,000 Arabs. (subsequently taken the name 'palestinians'.)
You lied continuously despite your own link saying otherwise.

You cannot dismiss facts just because they are on a Jewish website. Unlike Arab/Palestinkian websites, Jewish ones are honest and present both sides. Which is why you and other opponents can use JVL, Ha'aretz, etc.
None of the sites I used would ie, fabricate or misrepresent a Benny Morris letter.
Unlike the conspiracist and lying Arab press, Israel has Laws. The publication would be subject to slander.
There are No pro-Israel Arab or palestinian' sites. They'd get killed.

You rejected it because you have not 1% of the knowledge to refute it, and it PORKS your whole life's indoctrination.
You remain a one-line slander artist but completely non-conversant on all of them.
There's no 'debate' here.
There's you making empty/trite slander that I refute with my own words and links. The latter you have to dismiss because you cannot 'discuss'.

BTW here is the Morris letter again/identical, right from the Irish Times itself.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/israel-and-the-palestinians-1.896017
Now what?

You lose again.
That's like 10-outa-10 in just this string.


PS, glad to be off another 'goody'-Picture-Book-Spam page. Insane.
PS2: I spoke too soon. Bury-em-with-pictures-goody still at work below. At least it's not 10... yet.
+

 

Simple; because I say so...

Yes Parrotsteiger... I know... And I know as a fact that your commie were not in charge neither before nor after these dates. So how come a forbidden terror organization could send top terrorist leaders to Germany even in years 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999? Even today there are Sakine Cansiz kind of leaders all over Germany, gathering thousands of PKK supporters from all across Germany to have anti-Turkiye/anti-ATATURK/anti-Turk demonstrations...

You have claimed in your previous post that if commies were to come into power they would have supported PKK and Kurdistan. You tried to sell me that stupid cheap German stuff to say Merkel's NAZI rule was actually something better than those stupid commies. Pathetic... lol...

How come KALIFATSTAAT (Caliphate State of Germany) was getting all that German state's funding and support between the years 1983 to 2001? If those twin towers weren't put down, 21st century's NAZI Germany would still be having KALIFATSTAAT today. They banned it because Captain America ordered and directed NAZIs to shut their sh.t holes and ban those Radical Islamists they sponsor and fund...
So as a good puppy, NAZI Germania obeyed the orders...

Look how stupid it is...

 

@goody
Before I attempt to answer your posts, you must know that I'm not fond of conspiracy theories. Furthermore, always assigning all the blame to one side while exonerating the other side of all wrongdoings is a twist of the Master Race theory, with religious overtones reminding of the good-evil duality.

Let me explain.

While I don't deny that conspiracies exist, I don't believe that large groups of people would be able to conspire over a long period of time, certainly not when the desired results can only be obtained by manipulating huge numbers of other people. Putin's failure to bring the far-right European parties to power despite financial help and ferocious propaganda on all possible communication channels is one example of why such conspiracies are doomed to fail. The impossibility of keeping the secret when large numbers of conspirators and accessories are involved is one factor. Lack of complete knowledge is another.

The "America did it all" approach to Turkey's domestic problems it's a twist of the Master Race theory, where the Americans - the enemy, real or perceived - is seen as the Master Race with godlike powers. Influencing internal and external politics of other countries is common occurrence since the dawn of history, Americans didn't invent it. Everyone and their neighbors' fleas are busy playing this game. The Perfidious Albion brought this practice to the highest level. However, even a cursory glance through history shows us that this is a massively multiplayer game, not a one-way platformer, and claiming otherwise is not only ignoring facts, but also demeaning the rest of the humanity considered mere puppets on strings in the hands of the Master Race. I wonder if there will be, in some 10.000 years from now, a new organized religion based on myths about the American Gods that created humans to serve as slaves. It's being wrought as we speak.

That's why your "9/11 inside job" and "Abramowitz did it" claims don't strike the chord you probably hoped for.

Do you really believe that your beloved Turkish nation is just a huge puppet on American strings?

 

Call the damn fire department now because it seems we got a burning up Sanders fan here...

The """supposed""" Jew goes:
"Noooo.... He wath not democratically elected yo thtupid ath... !"

Emma Goldman would have punched that face in a dire need, I swear

 

Sanders fan? Je? How did you manage to get to this brilliantly false conclusion? What seems to be burning is just your sparkling hot blunder...

Nothing like the smell of fresh male ego to brighten my day.

What triggered my comment was seeing how you turn exactly into what you opposed by using the exact same imagery and line of thought, and by doing the exact same mistakes. You do that a lot, many people do that a lot. Frankly I don't understand - why oppose someone who thinks and reacts exactly like you do? Hold hands, sing Kumbaya or whatever, unite in spiritual fraternity of hatred, prejudices and frustrations.

Yes, you do that on purpose to show that "his" side is at least as bad as "yours". This is no excuse for the display of hatred and intolerance, more so when you clearly believe at least half of what you post.

Sorry for the patronizing answer, but you asked for it.