What is college for, anyway?

Being enlisted also teaches one not to say incredibly stupid things in front of other people.

 

How is an officer going to give me orders while the mortars are firing at an enemy who is firing at us?

Did you pass notes to your men?

 

Lets put a new spin on this thread.

Understanding the steady and troubling decline in the average intelligence of Marine Corps officers

When the United States ended the draft and transitioned to an all-volunteer military in 1973, there was concern about who would join and whether the transition would negatively impact the quality of the force, which many suspected it would.

As it turns out, the quality of the force as a whole actually increased over time. In 1977, 27.1 percent of new enlisted recruits met the military’s standard for being “high quality,” meaning that they possessed a high school diploma and above-average intelligence relative to the U.S. population as a whole. Decades later, at the height of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, 60 percent of new enlisted recruits met the high quality standard.

But what about military officers? Though commissioned officers comprise only about 16 percent of the force, they clearly have a major impact on the success of the military as a whole given their leadership role for their troops and responsibility for strategy and tactics.

So are today’s officers up to the task? In new research, Brookings’ Michael Klein and Tufts University’s Matthew Cancian—a former Marine officer who served in Afghanistan—take a closer look at this question and uncover a troubling pattern.

After analyzing test scores of 46,000 officers who took the Marine Corps’ required General Classification Test (GCT), Klein and Cancian find that the quality of officers in the Marines, as measured by those test scores, has steadily and significantly declined over the last 34 years.


The General Classification Test (GCT) from World War II to present day

So what exactly is the GCT, and how are the scores used by the U.S. military? The GCT dates back to World War II, when it was developed to help classify incoming servicemen. Designed to have a mean score of 100, with a standard deviation of 20, 120 was used as the bar for entry into Marine Officer Candidate School (OCS).

After World War II, the military replaced the GCT with the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB). The Marine Corps, however, still administers the GCT to officers at The Basic School (TBS) because it strongly predicts their success there.

TBS is a six-month course that all Marine officers attend after completing two prior requirements: Obtaining a four-year college degree and attending Officer Candidate School.

GCT scores over time

Through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Marine Corps, Klein and Cancian received data on the GCT scores of all officers—46,000 altogether—from Fiscal Year 1980 to Fiscal Year 2014.

After analyzing the data, the authors uncovered a startling trend: A statistically significant decline in scores over the past 34 years, the magnitude of which, the authors say, “is relevant given the distribution of the scores.”

Other key findings include:

1. Eighty-five percent of those taking the test in 1980 exceeded a score of 120, which was the cut-off score for officers in World War II. In 2014, only 59 percent exceeded that score.
2. At the upper end of the distribution, 4.9 percent of those taking the test scored above 150 in 1980 compared to 0.7 percent in 2014.
3. Over 34 years, the average score decreased by 6.6 percent, from 130.9 to 122.1.
4. Taken together, the 8.2-point drop in average score represents 80 percent of an entire standard deviation’s decline (from 10.5 in 1980 to 9.6 in 2014). In other words, today’s Marine officers scored nearly an entire standard deviation worse, on average, than their predecessors 34 years ago.... Continue -> https://www.brookings.edu/blog/broo...verage-intelligence-of-marine-corps-officers/

 

Officers must always remain calm. That is their main job. It emulates confidence and gives troops confidence.

 

Most NCOs that I know who have wanted to leave the Enlisted area behind them went Warrant Officer.

This is for many reasons. Partially it is to avoid the politics of being an Officer. And since few former NCOs rise much beyond the rank of Major, this also works in their favor. Almost all of their peers are also former NCOs, and as a Warrant Officer W-1 through W-5, they make the exact same pay they would have if they got a full commission after being enlisted.

Plus as "subject matter experts", they are given a lot more respect by both Enlisted and Officers alike.

The biggest problem the military has in recruiting potential officers is both the idea that young grads will willingly give up the potential high pay of having a degree for an income of less than $35k a year. Then there is the rigorous background screenings and being physically able to join in the first place.

Go to most college students entering as Freshmen and tell them that for the next 4 years they can not touch drugs, drink under age, not get arrested or screw up their finances so badly that they can pass the check to get a Secret security clearance. Oh, and also must remain in good enough shape that they can pass a basic PT test. Oh, and when they are all done with that they get another year or so of hard training, only to make about the same amount as the manager of a Burger King.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Most will tell you to go piss on a rope before they agree to that. Unless it was a goal of theirs to become an Officer even before they started college.

 

How exactly does needing glass or dental work indicat level of knowledge

 

OTOH you do get secure employment, bed and board in addition to salary and ongoing training after college in an administrative function. You also get a competitive pension after 20 years, so assuming you graduate after 4 years of college you can have a good basis for moving into the private sector at 42.

It's also not likely you'll stay at 35k for your whole career. Upper echelon officers still don't make as much as comparable civilian jobs but the training for moving into those very jobs after you retire is very good, and about the only such training there is for some.

I thjnk they pay for your college too.

It's not the best deal in the world but it's not the worst either. I worked with a former career military man who had gotten to be a colonel in the regular Army and then retired into a Brigadier General's post in the Reserve. His combined salary and pension was well into 6 figures and this was before his civiliand pay as a Department Head. Not really bad for a man of 45

 

Yelling is a reinforcement that every officer does AND NCO does. This isn't the "politely ask to focus fire on the east" Navy, this is the regular Army with bad words and loud noises.

Grow up

 

True, all true.

And it would help a LOT if some of these countless wars were actually in defense of our own soil. I say, "thank you for your service" a lot, but I realized the service was largely killing babies for corporations and far from protecting me is probably making my life MORE dangerous a long time ago. (The baby killing is by bombs from airplanes and artillery/drones btw, NOT our individual soldiers. The true horror that we require our service persons to deliver on innocent civilians is always inadvertent and another major reason we can't keep people in the service.)

People have asked me what could Trump do that would make me approve of him and that's it. If he stops the ****** endless wars and brings ALL our troops HOME, which, in fact, he DID promise to do, then I'll vote for him in 2020. I promise that with some confidence that I won't have to make good on it.

 

Meanwhile, President Argentine General prepares us for YEARS of new deployments in Korea, with maybe atom bombs going off. Thank you Republicans, next time you can at least buy us dinner before you **** us.

Btw, thank you for your service, and I mean that sincerely

 

If you haven't read it, may I recommend a book called The General, by C.S. Forester. It's a fictionalized biography of General Haig of WWI and one major theme is that ensuring your people come from the "right" backgrounds doesn't always mean they will have the Right Stuff.

 

The number of pilots is small, especially fighter pilots. The majority who join the AF with the intent of flying actually become cargo pilots.

And that is a high demand position, both civilian and military. Most will do their mandatory time, then leave for the lucrative and well paying job of flying cargo and passenger aircraft.

But for fighter pilots, not so much so. Most leave without the required experience to become commercial pilots so end up doing other things (or spending a lot of money to get the proper training).

And over the decades the number of actual "fighter squadrons" has shrunk a lot. You can look through the list, and see how many have been deactivated, or simply shuttled off to various training operations.

Even the famous 99th Pursuit Squadron (of Tuskegee Airman Fame) has been known since 1988 as the 99th Flying Training Squadron. So if you get assigned there you get to fly the T-1 Jayhawk giving flight training to other pilots.

And with the reduced number of units and missions, that means less room for officer growth and advancement. Far to many find themselves at the 6 or 8 year mark as excess to the needs of the service and shuttled off to civilian life.

That happened to a buddy of mine in the Marines years ago. He got his gold bars in 1988 after a 4 year ROTC scholarship and then served his 6 years. But in 1994 the military was downsizing so he was sent back to being a civilian.

Both enlisted and officers have had this problem for decades. One President increases the size of the military, the next contracts it. And trust me, there is nothing more frustrating than serving 10-15 years, only to be told you are now excess to the needs of the service.

Trust me, been there 2 times now. In both 1993 and 2012 I saw the end of my service because of troop cuts (why they do not just call it a layoff I have no idea). At least the last time I was able to go to the Reserves. But I know far to many who just got fed up of it all and left for good from 2010-2014.

 

The number one reason why volunteers and draftees were classified as 4-F during WW ll was for poor dental hygiene.

It was blamed on the poor diet during the Great Depression.

 

No, they are being forced out.

It is known as Retention Control Point in official language, "Up or Out" more informally.

In short, at so many years in your career you must be of a certain rank. Not have the rank, out you go.

And higher rank is largely determined by the needs of the military. In times of downsizing, there are less units. So less positions for the ranks as you move higher.

Most of the pilots are in the "Company Grade" levels, 2nd Lieutenant through Captain (Ensign through Lieutenant in the Navy). And if you want to stay in past that point, you had better have the right boxes checked in your service.

As in, command of a Company sized organization for Command Experience, and time in a Staff Position, generally that is done in the S-3 Operations office. Without those, forget moving up.

So take your outstanding pilot. He loved flying, so much so that he or she does not want to give up their ability to fly by commanding a desk for 1.5-2 years. So they keep flying, while another officer did some time as the Battalion Training Officer for a year, then was the Company Commander of a maintenance company for a year (also not flying).

Guess which of these is going to get Major, and have a chance to advance their career? Which is going to find themselves as a senior Captain, and have no choice but to get out because they have been turned down for promotion 3 times?

This is how things are in the military. As you move up in rank, there are fewer and fewer positions available. And most who really intend on making a career do all they can to remain competitive above their peers. That means often taking crap assignments, because they know in the long run it will look good in their service record when it comes time for promotion.

And also in continuing college. I had a Battalion Commander a few years ago who had 2 Masters degrees, and 3 Bachelors degrees. And a few months after we returned from deployment, she was moved to work with the JCS in the Pentagon. Then after 3 years there she went to the Army War College.

She now has her Silver Chicken, and is in command of a Brigade. I have heard rumors for years that she will likely retire with at least 2 stars. But there are few positions like those, and most get out, either by choice or simply not enough positions for them to be promoted.

 

Which is one of the reasons why the Army embraced Warrant Officers for pilots in the first place. And the Air Force has not used that rank in decades.

WOs are rather unique in that they are not Officers, and their requirements for advancement and promotion are nowhere near the same.

I have seen a CW4 Maintenance Officer who moved to another unit replaced by a WO1 just out of school. Could you imagine a Major being transfered, and replaced by a 2nd Lieutenant?

From what I have been told, most positions filled by Warrant Officers are simply "Warrant Officer" positions, unless they are high enough to need something like a CW4 or Light Saber. The rest are primarily plug and play from what I have seen.

Of course, I have also never been in an Aviation unit, it might be different there. But in Infantry (Marines), ADA and Medical, they seem pretty much interchangeable.

 

That's funny.

Wait and see, if you make it into OCS.

 

Actually, it was a brilliant move by the Army, and a lot of it is directly referenced in the W.E.B. Griffith series "The Brotherhood of War". In it, the origins of Army Aviation is covered in a fictional (but accurate) way.

And one thing several of the main characters (who transfered from Airborne and Armor to Flight) recognized is that having officers do all the flying simply made no sense. Especially if they were going to pump up the numbers needed for Cold War era transportation and Anti-Armor missions.

Basically, 2 of the characters both reached the conclusion that simply made no sense. You could take a Sergeant who had dropped out of High School, and give him command of a $500,000 M48 Patton tank with a crew of 3. Yet it somehow took an "officer and a gentleman" with a college degree to fly a $20,000 H-13 Souix helicopter with only a pilot and passenger.

Without Warrants, the aviation program of the late 1950's would never have become what it is today. But all the other branches still follow the old system.

 

History of the Army Aviation Warrant Officer



The establishment of the Air Force as a separate armed service and the demobilization of the armed forces after World War II created serious shortages of aviators in Army Ground Forces. Organic Army Aviation was cut to its pre-World War II level just when the Army was trying to increase organic aviation. With the arrival of new helicopters, the Army needed more helicopter pilots but congressionally imposed commissioned officer strength levels prevented pilot expansion. The Army requested authority to establish the Flight Officer/Warrant Officer program. This proposal was rejected because the Army already had three groups of personnel - -enlisted, warrant officer and commissioned officer. As a fall back position, the Department of the Army decided that the grade of flight officer was in reality a Warrant Officer grade with a restriction to the Warrant Officer Junior Grade rank (WOJG).



This proposal envisioned a Warrant Officer pilot who would spend an entire military career in the aviation field, much like the concept of today’s Aviation Warrant Officer. Because there was no Aviation Branch for commissioned officers or enlisted soldiers, the Warrant Officer pilot would provide the continuity needed in Army Aviation. The Army felt that the Warrant Officer pilot would ensure stability and expertise that was often diminished or lost completely due to commissioned officer rotation in and out of aviation assignments. Commissioned officers were required to maintain their branch expertise to be promoted. With Warrant Officer pilots staying in aviation flying assignments throughout their careers, aviation would gain the stability needed to maintain combat effectiveness.



The officers involved with Army Aviation had great plans for the use of the Warrant Officer pilot. The Department of the Army policy for the proposed Warrant Officer pilot limited them to the operation of aircraft on administrative type missions only. So despite the tremendous World War II record of flight officer/warrant officer aviators, when a mission involved transporting field grade staff officers or required technical or tactical responsibilities the aircraft was piloted by a commissioned officer.



Army leaders were certain that Army Aviation would benefit in many ways from the Warrant Officer pilot program, in spite of restrictive policies. First, the Warrant Officer pilot could become the capstone of the enlisted maintenance career; second, commissioned officer pilot shortages could be filled by Warrant Officer pilots; third, Warrant Officer pilots could carry a large portion of the commissioned officer aviator additional duties, thus allowing commissioned officers more freedom and greater involvement in command duties; and fourth it would cost less to pay Warrant Officer pilots than commissioned officer pilots. With the number of Pilot positions required, the Army envisioned all aviator positions from second lieutenant through captain being converted to Warrant Officer pilot positions.



In late 1949, the Warrant Officer pilot proposal was approved. Army leaders decided that the WO helicopter pilot MOS should be made available to qualified enlisted soldiers and to qualified civilian personnel. Although the Artillery School at Fort Sill trained officers and enlisted personnel in advanced aviation skills, the Transportation Corps was designated as the proponent agency for aviation WO MOS, with the Air Force still responsible for Army aviator flight training.



Meanwhile, the Adjutant General decided that inclusion of the helicopter pilot in the aircraft maintenance career field was inappropriate. The Army Staff agreed there was no apparent relationship between aircraft maintenance and the knowledge and skills necessary to fly helicopters. It was decided that technical knowledge in mechanics was not a prerequisite for helicopter pilot training since no other service used aircraft mechanic technical knowledge as a prerequisite for pilot training. The Warrant Officer Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) code was designated “1066.” Regardless of what aircraft a Warrant Officer pilot was qualified in, there was only one MOS. The news spread quickly and the Army began receiving applications from across the spectrum of enlisted career fields.



The first Warrant Officer Candidate class to train in helicopters was the Army Helicopter Pilot Course, Class 51A. The class started training in April 1951 with 28 students and graduated 25 students in December 1951. (See Army Letter)



When students initially began training, they were told that after 12 months in grade as a Warrant Officer they would receive commissions similar to flight officers in the Army Air Forces. But after 39 months in grade, none of the Warrant Officers received nor was offered a commission. In fact, they were all still WO1; none had been promoted to CW2. It wasn’t until 1955 that WO1 started being promoted. Flight pay remained another inequity, and it wasn’t until 23 years later, in 1974, that Warrant Officer pilots received flight pay equal to commissioned officer pilots.



The transportation helicopter table of organization and equipment (TOE), TD 55-57T, was published in 1950 with positions that called for WO helicopter pilots. Each company had 21 H-19 Sikorsky, 12-place helicopters (nicknamed “Chickasaw”). Five of these helicopter transportation companies were slated for duty in Korea. Of the five, only two reached Korea before the end of the war, the 6th and 13th. They both departed for Korea on 7 December 1952 and were the first Army helicopter companies in combat.



These first Warrant Officer helicopter pilots played an important role in the early development of Army Aviation. Newly rated Warrant Officer pilots evacuated wounded soldiers, directed artillery strikes, and transported troops and supplies throughout the Korean battlefield.



Aviation Warrant Officers, although few in number, proved their worth to the Army. It appeared that the helicopter and the Warrant Officer pilot were here to stay. No one then could envision the role WO helicopter pilots would ultimately play in the evolution of Army Aviation.



After the Korean War, the Army Aviation School moved from Fort Sill, OK to Camp Rucker, AL in the latter part of 1954. With the increased emphasis on helicopter training, the rotary wing training section was elevated to a department level status equal in status to fixed wing training. The first helicopter class at Fort Rucker began training with 6 commissioned officers, 2 warrant officers, and 17 warrant officer candidates (WOC) and graduated on 30 April 1955.



In the mid-1950s, Army Aviation began to reorganize and expand. Camp Rucker was redesignated Fort Rucker effective 13 October 1955. The Department of Defense (DOD) directed the Army to assume all Army Aviation training and in April 1956 transferred Wolters Air Force Base Texas, to the Army. The Army redesignated the base to Camp Wolters. In July 1956, Camp Wolters Texas became the U.S. Army Primary Helicopter Center and School. Camp Wolters later became Fort Wolters and Aviation Warrant Officer Candidates were trained at this post from November 1956 until 1973. For more about the school and post visit the History page of the Fort Wolters Chapter, Viet Nam Helicopter Pilots Association (VHPA).



Fort Rucker, AL then became the Army advanced helicopter school. From 1953 to 1957, an in-depth analysis was completed to determine whether the Aviation Warrant Officer Corps should be continued and what, if any, its future role should be. These studies determined that Warrant Officers should remain an integral part of Army Aviation. However, much like today, due to budget cuts and WO strength caps, WO appointments were reduced. Warrant officer Pilot training was suspended in 1959 after only 1,100 Warrant Officer pilots had been trained.



In 1961, Army Aviation deployed its first helicopter and fixed wing units to Vietnam. In 1963, Warrant Officer pilot training was resumed with an input of 720 Warrant Officer Candidates.



The mid-1960s saw a dramatic period of growth for Aviation Warrant Officers. Aviation WO strength swelled from approximately 2,960 in 1966 to more than 12,000 by 1970. No one envisioned the impact that WO aviators would have on the conduct of the war in Vietnam, nor the impact Vietnam would have on Army Aviation.



In 1962, the Army began an in-depth study and test of the tactical air mobility of organic Army ground forces. These tests proved the air mobility concept and the necessity and value of Warrant Officer pilots. As a result of these tests, the 11th Air Assault was formed. On 1 July 1965, it became the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) and deployed to Vietnam in August. As more combat units deployed to Vietnam, aviation became more visible and its role in combat were apparent. Warrant officer aviators flew through the heaviest concentrations of enemy fire in the Vietnam War and were involved in every aspect of combat operations. Helicopters became the symbol of the Vietnam War, and helicopter pilots were among the first to be killed in the war and among the last to leave. The combat attrition rate for Aviation Warrant Officer Pilots was 20 times that of United States Air Force (USAF), United States Navy (USN), and United States Marine Corps (USMC) aviators. This was in large part due to the intense loyalty these aviators shared and the leadership role played by many Aviation Warrant Officers. An Aviation Warrant Officer would land to rescue a downed aircrew regardless of the circumstances, weather conditions, or enemy firepower. This had a profound positive effect on Army aviator morale...

continue-> https://warrantofficerhistory.org/Hist_Avn_WO.htm

 

I don't think I like Haig, he was a poor officer. I doubt if I'd read up on him.

Clearly, there have been many great leaders who came from the lower ranks, with Napoleon being the best example.

 

1. I think officers should be promoted from the enlisted ranks, AND possess a relevant college degree to reach field grade rank.

2. An officers technical and/or tactical leadership is far more important to the mission than their competency in most soldierly tasks. Yes, an infantry officer needs to know how to properly participate in and function as part of a patrol, but most officers are in logistical or technical leadership roles. Their ability to lead and plan is much more important than their skills in land nav and on the rifle range. An infantry officer is much better served by being promoted from the ranks while a logistics officer would be better served with a college degree.

3. The military should be more focused on doing what works instead of relying on tradition. WW2 was a reminder that peace time officers, which I still think a vast majority of our senior officers are, do not make good combat officers. We basically forgot all of the lessons about leadership that we learned in WW2 and Korea and went back to the old ways of doing things.