Virginia-Based Imam Sulaiman Jalloh: Allah Willing, America Will Be a Muslim Nation

Since this thread is about Islam, on what basis do you blame Islam for this, rather than the local culture?

Consider that MANY cultures have traditionally prized boys over girls, and invested their resources accordingly. For much of U.S. history, educating ones daughters was a luxury, even an eccentricity. Clearly that wasn’t due to Islam.

There is a gender imbalance in China because their one-child policy led to female infanticide, due to a strong cultural preference for sons. Clearly that wasn’t due to Islam.

So why do you blame Islam when the same thing happens in Pakistan?

 

I blame both on Islam to a large extent, actually. So your question is not meant for me.

 

right, including Christian cultures. yet western society and christianity have been reformed to a much, much greater extent, thanks to external, secular ideas. Islam needs a similar reform. This is clear..

 

???

You blame longstanding cultural gender preferences in North America and China on ISLAM?

I would love to hear your explanation for that.

 

I blame the fact that they stand today in large part on Islam, yes. Absolutely. The justification for this is very openly stated as being from the koran. you don't have to listen to my explanation; you can ask the males of Pakistan themselves. they are always quite happy to use the 'divine truth' in the Koran to justify many of the nauseating traits of their culture which they maintain.

 

Youn realize they’re just using the local dominant religion to reinforce local customs, right? Same thing happened with Christians and all manner of things, like slavery. Still happens, with Christians demanding the right to discriminate against gay people, oppose the teaching of evolution in school, etc.

You can quote the Koran to support just about anything. You can quote the Bible to support just about anything. The question is whether the religion is driving it, or is simply a tool.

So look at other Muslim countries. In Iran, 95% of girls attend school, and make up a majority of incoming college students. You see similar numbers in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country.

So how can you claim Islam is to blame, when many Muslim countries educate women equally?

 

As an aside, guess what the best cure for poverty is....
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.

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Empowerment of women.

 

The customs, themselves, both often arose from and are reinforced by the dominant religion. And we can see the horrible results, where that religion is Islam.

That's nice, but the problem really is that far too many people do this very thing and accepting the literal meaning. They aren't 'reading between the lines", or committing some sort of intellectual fraud (like, some christians who claim the Genesis story perfectly describes and aligns with with our evidence and scientific theories about the universe of the universe ).. they are living the printed ideas, fundamentally and literally. And, boy oh boy, what horrible ideas they are.

Again, Islam needs a reformation. The basic premises you bring don't really dispute my main point (stated in the previous sentence). I think they reinforce it.

To be clear, what you are saying is that we should look at the minority of Muslim countries that do better things you would like to point out. I agree that they are better. I would point at those countries as being more reformed by external ideas than most Muslim countries. This, again, reinforces the power of reform away from fundamental Islam.

Can we at least agree on that?

I would also point out that the fact that it is a minority of Muslim countries that display the traits you wanted to point out. This also reinforces the need for and success of reform.

At this point, I think i am very clear on that:

Islam is a motherlode of bad ideas, and the religion, worldwide, is too fundamentalist... too beholden to too many of these terrible ideas. Islam needs a reformation.

 

I hope the American authorities are watching that fanatic imam !

 

Fundamentalism in Islam is not like fundamentalism in Christianity. All Muslims are fundamentalists in that they believe in the 5 fundamentals of Islam.

 

Which would not be a problem at all, if the fundamental islamists weren't beholden to absolutely horrible ideas, gleaned straight from literal reading of the Koran. Would we be complaining about decentralization of islam, if not for the horrors wrought by the fundamentalists? No. So you are avoiding the main cause, still.

 

Then all Christians are fundamentalists, in that they believe a small set of fundamentals. As are adherents of any religion, or of any paradigm at all. That's a whitewash of the meaning of the word, "fundamentalist". Of course, this is not the sort of fundamentalism I have been referring to thus far, instead meaning literal interpretation of the the writings. This little bait-and-switch on the term "fundamentalists" is expected, and it is the primary reason I prefer to clarify by speaking of "those who take the writings literally", instead of saying, "fundamentalists".

 

Ask a Muslim scholar or a Muslim Judge about "fundamentalists." The 5 pillars of Islam are accepted by all Muslims and have nothing to to with literal reading of the texts or radicalism.

 

Decentralizing Islam? There is no hierarchy in Sunni Islam.. How did you come up with such a "literal" understanding of the Koran and Muslims? Its pretty hateful and dishonest. Did you have a bad experience with Muslims in Virginia or whereever you're from?

 

Its a bogus accusation.. Girls are entitled to an education in Islam.. Falls under rights for women.

In Arabia 67% of university students are women.

 

You automaticly defend Islam and Arab countries.
You know that many women under Muslim Arab laws are treated less than dogs.

 

Perhaps folks are missing the point here. There is an actual danger to our constitution, the rights of our citizens should the US become an Islamic state and institute Sharia. I think it's entirely disingenuous of the liberal folks here to ignore the reality of what the imam actually referred to here. I don't actually have a problem having folks who are muslim here, as long as they otherwise fully assimilate into our political and social culture. The expectation must be a real separation between their personal religious devotions and their affinity and loyalty to our constitutional political and civil rights based social society.

 

Yes, no surprise with the Muslims. Their hope is world domination. And if you dare to say otherwise you are a Islamophobe.

But the dems will have a problem as they try to turn America into Mexico. The Muslims and Mexicans wont get along. Lots of beheadings in the forecast.

 

And many American women are beaten or murdered by husbands or boyfirends.

 

LOLOL.. No there isn't.. We have had Biet Din in the US for 250 years and it is NO threat.

 

Um... I suppose it's just safe to say you didn't actually read the content of the post I made? Was this a canned response or just your best effort to derail the conversation?

 

I agree. Screw this guy. But how is he any different than people like David Barton or Gary North, who want to turn American into a christian theocracy? What makes a muslim cleric calling for the islamification of America any worse than someone calling for a christian government?

 

Yes, it's a feedback loop. But it isn't unique to Islam. I think your insistence that it is merely reflects your bias.

For instance, here you quote the part where I said the Koran can be used to justify anything, and ignored the part where I pointed out that the Bible can be (and has been) used to justify anything, too. You seem to be applying an obvious double standard to Islam.

I already said I agree that as far as radical fundamentalist religionists go, those attached to Islam are the biggest problem today. And that it would be helpful if Islam went through a reformation of some sort.

But that is a different thing than saying Islam IS the problem. As I have pointed out, moderate strains of Islam exist. The problem isn't Islam, it's the most extreme and conservative interpretations of it. It is also no coincidence that those extreme and conservative interpretations come out of countries with extremely conservative cultures. The conservative interpretation reflects the conservative culture. Meanwhile, more moderate cultures have more moderate interpretations.

The problem is the conservative culture, not something inherent to Islam itself.

And as I have ALSO pointed out, a reformation would be difficult because Islam doesn't have a central authority like the Pope. It's a very decentralized religion. Which is why extremist interpretations exist alongside moderate ones. So it's less a matter of needing a reformation and more a matter of figuring out how the moderate interpretations can outcompete the extreme ones. And in large part, I believe that requires changes to the underlying culture.

In other words, if you want the tribal regions of Pakistan to stop supporting extreme versions of Islam, we need to change the culture. Do that, and their expression of Islam will likewise moderate. Just like with ANY dominant religion.

#1, those were examples, not an exhaustive list.

#2, from a logical perspective, they disprove your point. If there are Muslim countries where girls are equally educated, then it's hard to blame Islam for the countries where girls AREN'T equally educated. You have to blame the local culture instead. It is ALSO illogical to blame Islam for boy-preferring practices that have a long history spanning all countries and religions.

But let's go back to #1, and look at how Muslim countries stack up in the education of girls:

Here's a global report on gender gaps around the world:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2013.pdf

If you go to Page 18, you can see the ranking by the Education subindex.

These are the bottom 10 countries, from worst to less worse. I've identified the dominant religion in each.
1. Benin (no dominant religion, biggest minority is Christian)
2. Chad (Muslim)
3. Yemen (Muslim)
4. Ivory Coast (Muslim)
5. Mali (Muslim)
6. Ethiopia (Muslim)
7.Nepal (Hindu)
8. Pakistan (Muslim)
9. Burkina Faso (Muslim)
10. Angola (Christian)

Seven of the worst are Muslim. But three aren't, including the worst offender. Meanwhile, there is an equally strong correlation with Africa. But mostly, there is a 100% correlation with being a conservative, tribal culture.

Indeed, if you look at the NEXT worst 10, the Islam correlation falls apart entirely:

11. Nigeria (Muslim)
12. Senegal (Muslim)
13. Mozambique (no dominant religion, biggest minority is Christian)
14. Uganda (Christian)
15. Cameroon (Christian)
16. Zambia (Christian)
17. India (Hindu)
18. Mauritania (Muslim)
19. Tanzania (Christian)
20. Cambodia (Buddhist)

Four are Christian, with a fifth having Christianity as the largest minority. Three are Muslim. One each for Hinduism and Buddhism. But EIGHT are in Africa.

Put another way, of the 20 worst countries on the list:
-- 10 are Muslim
-- 7 are Christian or have Christianity as the largest religion
-- 2 are Hindu
-- 1 is Buddhist

If you proceed from the assumption that religion is the problem, then both Islam and Christianity are to blame.

But if you look at the most relevant statistic -- 15 of the countries are in Africa -- it becomes obvious that culture, not religion, is to blame.

Looking at the full list, we see that Muslim countries span a HUGE range when it comes to women's education.

The top-ranked Muslim country, Maldives, is in a 25-way tie for first place. That tie includes another Muslim country, the United Arab Emirates.

Qatar is ranked #53, beating out Portugal and Belgium, for instance. Jordan and Kazakhstan are #68-69, again beating out a range of Western countries. Close behind are Bahrain, Malaysia, Brunei and Kyrgyzstan. They all beat out countries like Israel and China.

I don't know how you can look at stats like that and conclude that Islam is the problem, when Muslim countries literally range from best to worst. I'm not a statistician, but the correlation between Islam and "lack of education for girls" looks to be about zero.

Please respond to the stats above. You seem to be blaming Islam for the effects of local culture. If a majority-Muslim country does something you don't like, it's because of Islam. But you don't blame the religion when a majority-Christian country does the same thing or worse. That's a double standard.

 

Immediately after 9-11 instant experts on Islam and "Wahhabis" began popping out of the woodwork. None of them knew anything nor had they ever been to the ME. Theirs was a grab for celebrity and money.

 

Most Christians believe we already have a Christian Nation. Christian doctrine doesn't really concern itself with the form of government or law to be applied. In contrast to Islam that dictates both. Christian doctrine was used by Patrick Henry in his pamphlet "Common Sense" to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs and to demonstrate the legitimacy of government of by and for the people.