America's achilles heel - election system

Just about ALL of Republican so-called "efforts to stop voter fraud" are mainly aimed at doing one thing , and that is to make voting inconvenient, and especially inconvenient for poor people.

Pubs dislike of poor people is never more obvious than during the elections

 

There is nothing at all that supports your claim that legitimate votes will be canceled if there is voter id.

Lets assume that there is no fraud. Whats the problem with requiring voter id? Its as easy as getting a library card, and not that long ago a person had to show an id to register to vote. And it puts to bed a very contentious issue, which will result in trust returning to the election process.

But I do not believe that there is no fraud particularly in states like California which are bending over backwards to get illegals to vote (claiming they pay taxes so they should have a vote in what impacts their lives).

Russia didn't commit any election fraud, but people are going crazy over so-called "meddling" and states and the feds are bending pover backwards to address that issue. Why? To make people think the electoral process is safe and secure. Do the same with voter ID.

 

Bullshit, most states don't make it at all easy for old or really poor people to get a picture ID and those are the only kind who don't have drivers licenses. I've done most all of those things without picture ID, and voting is done on a double blind system. You have to be REGISTERED to vote and the registration is checked rather thoroughly by the Board of Election Supervisors, (or its equivalent) and they will ask you to come in to verify your identity if there's any problem.

Requiring an extra voting ID when all this registration has already been done is completely irrational and utterly silly. It has one and only one purpose, to make it hard for poor people to vote. Republicans want to do this for two reasons. One is because they don't like poor people voting and the other is to distract from the other kinds of cheating they do, which is the only way they ever win any elections really.

 

Bullshit. I've already explained how, and will go into more detail below.

It is NOT as easy as getting a library card. Which is why I asked you to cite a recent Voter ID law of your choice.

But since you didn't, I will. Here's Wisconsin's Voter ID law:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/23

The only thing that counts as valid ID is:

• A Wisconsin driver's license
• An nondriver identification card issued by the Wisconsin Department of Transportation
• Photo identification issued by the United States military
• A United States passport or passport card
• A United States naturalization certificate, issued not more than two years prior to the election
• An unexpired receipt for a Wisconsin driver's license or nondriver identification card (this is given at the Department of Motor Vehicles, as Wisconsin's licenses and identification cards are printed and mailed from an outstate provider in California)[2]
• A tribal identification card issued by a recognized Wisconsin Native American tribe
• An unexpired identification card issued by an accredited Wisconsin college or university with a date of issuance, a date of expiration not later than two years after the date of issuance, the voter's signature, and further provided that the student also present proof of enrollment in said college or university

So if you have a driver's license or equivalent, great. But a lot of people have neither:
https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/d/download_file_50902.pdf

In Wisconsin, 23% of people over 65 have neither -- a total of 177,000 people. Another 98,000 people between 25 and 64 also lack both. So right there, you just made it harder for 275,000 people to vote.

Military ID? Passport? Tribal ID? None of these affect a large share of the population, so not really a factor.

Student ID? Look at the long list of additional requirements, including ALSO providing proof of current enrollment.

Further, the name on the ID must match the name on the voter-registration form. God forbid if you don't have an exact match.

Finally, there is NOTHING in the law about making it easy to get a required ID. Subsequent lawsuits forced the state to drop a requirement to show a birth certificate when applying for an ID, and also forced the state to waive the ID fee if asked. But that doesn't address the other barriers to getting such an ID -- namely, you have to have the time and transportation to go to the DMV and get one. For many poor or elderly people, this is not a small barrier.

Meanwhile, how big is the problem we're trying to solve here? Tiny. During lawsuits around Wisconsin's law, the state was unable to show ANY significant voter fraud.

Here's a rundown of investigations into voter fraud:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...und-virtually-nothing/?utm_term=.b6532c7a38ca

All found almost nothing. The most comprehensive study found a fraud rate of 1 fraudulent vote per 32 million votes cast.

Wisconsin's populuation is 5.8 million. So in order to get ONE case of in-person voting fraud, the ENTIRE population of the state (including children) would have to vote in 5 consecutive election cycles.

So to stop that 1-in-32,000,000 vote, Wisconsin passed a law that immediately disenfranchised 275,000 people.

That makes no sense at all.

Good. Neither do I. As I have now said repeatedly, it is EXTREMELY RARE.

And you know this how?

Investigating foreign meddling doesn't disenfranchise anybody. Voter ID does.

 

Not that's what they spent. What did these bots and fake users do to change the election outcome?

 

YES those were part of it but ALL election security and integrity and what can be done to improve it. All you got are simple dismissals of Trumps attempt to do something about it then you complain he hasn't done anything about it, how self serving.

Not that they just don't run them there are no federal elections in this country. Only STATE. The federal government is not responsible for those elections

How do they hack the voting machines I use? And that is exactly what the commission was going to look at, how secure are the systems, which aren't which are and what we can do to improve it.

 

How much is OK? We had a tie vote in West Virginia where which party would control the state legislature was in the balance.

How much voter fraud was OK in that election?

How about Kansas gubernatorial a few weeks ago, how much voter fraud is OK in that one?

How about Florida 2000 where who would be President hung in the balance, how many fraudulent votes would have been OK in that election?

How about the election for mayor in a little town of 1200 registered voters, how many fraudulent votes are allowable in your view?

 

Wrong on all counts.

In response to complaints such as yours (elderly cant get to the office to get an ID), states that proposed voter ID added provisions to waive the fee and provide transportation to elderly so they could get to the office, some states even allowed a designated person to represent the peson who could not travel.

You only have to show ID when you originally register to vote. Once registered, no id is required. That's the problem.

 

It seems you are unaware how social media and modern "networked" communications functions.

BTW, they spent MILLIONS on personnel, facilities, equipment, travel, wheel greasing etc. It what part of a coordinated state sponsored aggression do you consistently fail to understand?

 

Why is that a problem? Just what do you think voting frauds are going to do?, and please be specific.

 

yes it was completely self serving and exposed for the witch hunt it was.

Yeah I get how it works. The federal government DOES have some laws governing elections tho, don't they?

There's a bunch of ways, even this rather simple one:

DEFCON

An 11-year-old changed election results on a replica Florida state website in under 10 minutes

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...ica-florida-state-website-in-under-10-minutes

 

Wrong. https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/license-drvs/how-to-apply/identity.aspx
Since you use Wisconsin as your example, in Wisconsin you can get a state ID card for voting. Its free. You go to a state office and provide ID. The following are some of the ID which are accepted:
any photo ID card issued by Wisconsin even if expired
a pay stub from your employer
marriage or divorce certificate
Social Security card
Any government (federal, state, city or county) issued item which has a photo
and more.

Its almost trivial.

So much for your claim that its hard to get an ID to vote.

 

Nothing concerned with voting in the USA should be hooked to the internet.

It's one place that the clock should be turned back to before Al Gore invented the internet.

 

That would have been the complaints and urgings to end it because of what it might expose.

No what we have are equal access and equal protection laws that also apply to voting as with other things. The state doesn't even have to allow the citizens of that state to vote for the Electors to the Electoral College and the government could not force it to do so.


There's a bunch of ways, even this rather simple one:

Which would not change the election outcome, that would only be a notice of it. The results are certified by the Secretary of State as reported by the various local election commissioners.

So how would someone hack my vote and change it?

 

To vote in Ontario, you can present any one of the following forms of ID.

https://www.elections.on.ca/content...for Voting in Ontario Provincial Election.pdf

• Ontario driver’s licence
• Ontario photo card
• Ontario motor vehicle permit
• Statement of government benefits
• CNIB ID
• Band council identification
• Bank statement
• Credit card statement
• Loan statement or agreement
• Utility bill
• Cell phone bill
• Insurance policy or statement
• Hospital record or document
• Residential lease
• Mortgage agreement or statement
• Cheque stub, T4 slip or pay receipt
• School admissions letter
• Transcript or report card
• School tuition or fees statement

 

What a mess. About everything on your list below the top two would require the top two first.

 

FFS. I addressed that point, when discussing drivers licenses or the equivalent state ID.

I pointed out that 275,000 Wisconsin adults have neither. They are now disenfranchised until they are able to obtain an ID.

I also pointed out — and you again ignored — that in-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare. as in 1-in-32,000,000 votes rare.

So please explain why we should disenfranchise 275,000 people to avoid one fraudulent vote in every 32,000,000 cast? If even TWO of those people are unable to obtain an ID and vote, you have just disenfranchised more people than in-person voter fraud would in 20 years of voting.

Please stop avoiding these inconvenient facts and address them.

 

I vote in WA.

I don't have to have ANY id in order to vote. Neither does ANYONE in OR. Between our two states there are zero polling stations total.

The crime around polling stations is rampant. It involves hacked machines, no paper trail, unequal access, blatant partisan allocation of equipment and stations, "poll watchers", unprofessional handling of votes by "volunteers", etc., etc.

Look at Georgia. When it was suspected that their system was hacked they deleted the records!! They don't have a paper trail. The Sec State (who is now running for governor) has made strong statements concerning the very idea of minorities voting to be counter to his direction - and he's worked hard on that.

I'd point out that EVERY state has a vote by mail system that has nothing at all to do with polling places.

We need to make absentee voting secure and eliminate the ancient, hacked polling stations nation wide.

 

When election are decided by 100's of votes, they can change then outcome of an election. Just like the 2008 election when Al Franken beat Norm Coleman by 312 votes and nearly 393 felons voted, plus another roughly 600 questionable votes.

 

Most elections aren't close, that's why they're newsworthy, and please answer the question put. Just what do you think is going to happen? Specifically, just HOW will people cast fraudulent votes because they don't need ID at the polls?

 

Wrong.

Learn to read.

Any govt issued document with a photo is valid, be it state, county, federal, city.

Any Wisconsin govt issued document with a photo is valid, even if it is expired.

A pay stub from your employer, your marriage or divorce paper are all valid.

All kinds of ID is valid, not just a DL.

Learn to read. Go read the WI web site I linked.

 

Wrong again.

Currently the Republicans hold a majority of 51 in the Senate, with McCain out due to his brain tumor its effectively 50 votes plus the Vice President. One election flips the Senate to the Democrats. One election, such as the Franken-Coleman election, changes everything.

 

Okeh fine, now PLEASE answer what I ASKED

HOW will people cast fraudulent votes?

 

Those are valid in order to obtain a State-issued ID. They are not valid to vote. You need the IDs I listed in order to vote.

As I have now pointed out at least three times, 275,000 Wisconsin adults do not have one of those IDs. So no matter how easy you think it is to get one, 275,000 people don’t have one.

Please address the point you keep dodging, which is that the kind of voter fraud that Voter ID stops is so vanishingly rare that if only TWO people are prevented from voting because of it, Voter ID has caused more problems than it solves.

 

Do you imagine what Hades would break loose if Trump were to delay or suspend the midterms? The Democrats would have a field day. I never liked electronic voting, being it is my home state involved in your link. I never trusted it. Paper ballots and punch cards have their flaws, but they can't be hacked. Paper ballots can be miscounted as punch cards can. We could have another 2000 Florida recount. But I trust them much more than simple electrons.

The problem with other means of voting other than computers is most folks want immediate results. I'm old enough to remember voting with paper ballots. Voting on those huge voting machines with toggle switches. Then punch cards and finally via computer. All have their drawbacks.