When the Red Army enters Hong Kong? You realize that Hong Kong is part of China and that it is not part of the US? How would you have felt if China was to have intervened that way during our Occupy Wall Street protests? As for cutting off trade with China, well I'm sure the American people will love paying 20 times more than what they're paying now for goods. You would see then how far Trump would get in the next election. I didn't realize you would be a slave to China if we didn't interfere. Interesting! And here I thought we were talking about Hong Kong? But you're right, I'm sure the last thing the Chinese people would want is go back to their British colony slavery years.
The whole world will denounce the USG if it ever slaughters thousands of demonstrators. China has done that. The impact of cutting of trade with China will be catastrophic for China, and a significant short term inconvenience for the American people.
If Hong Kong can win on their own, or countries other than the USA fight with them, I'm all for them. I just don't want family and friends fighting for Hong Kong's liberty -- primarily because the cost is so high and tens of thousands would return in body bags if they returned at all. I don't want to see so much expendable meat go to waste. A lot of hot air is going to waste over Hong Kong, but words are cheap, prime beef fighting is very expensive. Carter gave Red China the green light to take Taiwan, and soon enough they will. Who will enlist for Taiwan?
the reason PLA didn't go in and protester can throw national flag into river and hold US/UK flag in airport show they did follow the agreement. The protester just want more, which china wont allow it. No nation gonna allow someone whos is not loyal to their own country elected as cities governor. Many HK don't identify themselves as Chinese, so china is not gonna allow them in control of the city.
disagree on that, cutting trade with 2nd largest economy will put US into a depression. beside you can't gurantee other countries will follow.
What for? Does China really need the money of Hong Kong? Are they in debt? Are they short of money for any of their projects? What for? It kinda doesn't work altogether IMHO. It's either Xi WILL attack because he knows that the US will not decide for any war or XI won't attack being afraid of another war with westerners. If you mean that there will be no land war but the US will destroy China with its airforce and rockets - that is a sort of thing I am talking about. But please, remember that China is much stronger than N.Korea and Iran taken altogether hundred times. And the US is not any stronger as it used to be trying to push these countries for better deals (which also didn't matter that much as with China). The only difference is that if US loses this time it's image of the only superpower on the planet will be destroyed.
Hong Kong always was a part of China and it was that government which gave them limited autonomy which it can take back at any time.
What goes there is none of my business or that of any Yank on this forum. We need to concern ourselves with the civil liberties of people in Ferguson and elsewhere. After all, would you like the UN to intervene in that city and to arrest cops there and all throughout the USA?
I cannot speak for all or even most or even more than one 'forum righty'. But surely you are not arguing that all violence, or all government violence, is always equal? The Ferguson rioters were trying to destroy the democratic order. The Hong Kong rioters, however misguided, are trying to defend one. I don't think it will resonate with anyone here ... that world is too far away in every sense. ... but the great Marxist Leon Trotsky, 80 years ago, wrote an essay on morality. You can look at it here, but I warn you, it will probably be as meaningful to everyone on this forum, with a couple of exceptions, as the debate early Church fathers about the Son's relationship to the Father-- homoousios vs homoiousios. [Not that anyone ever clicks on my links anyway.] But this quote captures the spirit, with which I agree entirely.
Is it your view that the rioters in Ferguson were trying to defend civil liberties? Exactly what ones would those be? The liberty of a doped-up violent thug to snatch a policeman's gun from him and kill him? Even Obama's Justice Department found that the policeman was innocent. But ... with the latest crop of Democratic candidates now re-writing history to make this criminal a martyr -- oh Orwell, thou shouds't be living at this time -- I can see this will soon be the common belief of the Left. (Conservatives, sensible liberals: we've got to leave!!!)
Dear Christ, defend us from such heroism. You want heroism where it pays off. How will provoking their own slaughter advance the cause of liberty? Heroism shares some things in common with foolhardiness, looked at from one point of view, but it's not the same thing. Sometimes you have to go down fighting -- had the German anti-Hitler forces tried to overthrow the legally-appointed Hitler in 1933 -- recall that 2/3 of the German people voted for non-Nazi parties in the autumn of 1932 -- even if they had been defeated, it would have saved the honor of the German people. But this case is different.
As I pointed out it will certainly be heroic and a human tragedy. Very like the Tiananmen Square massacre - if it happens. The sort of event that Hannah Arendt identified as especially significant. "The Hungarian revolution interrupted these types of automatic occur- rences and conscious or unconscious repetitions just when the student of totalitarianism had grown accustomed to them, and public opinion apa- thetic.... It was totally unexpected and took everybody by surprise — those who did and suffered, no less than those who watched in furious impotence from the outside, or those in Moscow who prepared to invade and conquer the country like enemy territory. For what happened here was something in which nobody any longer believed, if he ever had believed in it — neither the communists nor the anti-communists, and least of all those who, either with- out knowing or without caring about the price other people would have to pay, were talking about possibilities and duties of people to rebel against to- talitarian terror. If there was ever such a thing as Rosa Luxemburg's "spon- taneous revolution" — this sudden uprising of an oppressed people for the sake of freedom and hardly anything else, without the demoralizing chaos of military defeat preceding it, without coup d'etat techniques, without a closely knit apparatus of organizers and conspirators, without the under- mining propaganda of a revolutionary party, something, that is, which everybody, conservatives and liberals, radicals and revolutionists, had dis- carded as a noble dream — then we had the privilege to witness it. Perhaps the Hungarian professor was right when he told the United Nations Com- mission: "It was unique in history, that the Hungarian revolution had no leaders. It was not organized; it was not centrally directed. The will for freedom was the moving force in every action." THE ORIGINS OF TOTALITARIANISM, By Hannah Arendt, Meridian Books,New York, 1958. https://archive.org/stream/TheOriginsOfTotalitarianism/The-Origins-of-Totalitarianism_djvu.txt
Hey, Taiwan is part of China as is Hong Kong. Do you think the Chinese people living there would want a foreign nation intervening in their internal affairs? You forget that they were colonies and manipulated by Britain for over 100 years. Do you really think they would want either Britain or the US to intervene in their affairs. Guess again! This is Shanghai. My granddaughter said it makes New York City look like it's part of a 3rd world country.
China needs a free Hong Kong like Dracula needs innocent maidens to suck on. I don't think your statements regarding war with China are inconsistent with mine.
Those innocent blacks selectively targeted by cops for even the most minor of offenses over a prolonged period of time had their civil liberties violated by cops. By contrast, white supremacists in Las Vegas weren't targeted because of their race by the government but they carried high powered rifles and aimed them at the cops and feds. The government found them guilty of violating tax laws. Despite that they were defended by righties who still views them as martyrs.
Cutting trade with China will help the US economy. It will depress the hell out of Apple and a few other US corporate monstrosities - for less than a year.
Ferguson demonstrators were trying to preserve their rights and freedom after being persecuted by cops for years: https://tinyurl.com/y482nwyj All those who support the 2d Amendment need to defend them in their quests for justice.
And if so, will that make China’s slaughter any less monstrous? Any less horrific? Any less immoral? And any less unnecessary? And if so, does that mean the idealists must stay quiet, not whisper a warning, and not shed a tear? It’s a strange moral tale you tell.
Not following you here. You say Michael Brown ... was targetted because he didn't pay his taxes but carried a high powered rifle and aimed it at the cops and the Feds... but that white supremacists in .. Las Vegas??? ... weren't??? I don't live in the US and don't follow day-to-day American news like I would if I did live there, but I think I missed the episode with the tax-dodging Las Vegas white suprmacists.. Would be grateful for a link. Whoops, just found the one you posted, to the Economist article, and others. Yes, I do remember the Obama Justice Department going thru the Ferguson records and deciding they made Blacks pay their traffic tickets disproortionately to whites, or even issued them disproportionately. I know the Left believe that Blacks disproportionately suffer from police attention, including in the use of force. And I believe it too -- although not in the use of lethal force. I believe it because I have seen it, but that's just anecdotal evidence. I really believe it because Roland Fryer, a Harvard economist, and another fellow there, analyzed the data and concluded that it was true. He's someone I trust. Here's the link, for anyone interested. I used to be a member of a small Far Left group in Los Angeles, in the 1970s. We had three members -- one Chicano, as they were called in those days, one Black, and one white, with long hair. They shared an apartment, and came to our meetings in the old VW bug one of them owned. So many times .. they would be late .. why? They had been pulled over by the LAPD. Why they had been singled out is obvious. What do you do about? Write letters to the editor, sue the bastards, march, demonstrate. It's worked a treat in the US -- I grew up in Texas in the 50s and can tell you stories -- the Black radical who sold a single marijuana cigarrette to an undercover cop and was sentenced to 30 years in prison for it. We've come so far. But not because of the people who organized this (and it WAS organized, I even know some of the people who did it) . Believe me, those people couldn't care less about disproportionality in parking tickets!!! If anyone else is reading this ... some sensible liberal ... this gentlemen's views are becoming increasingly common on the Left. This isn't your grandfather's liberalism. This is your future. People like this are now exercising influence on the top leadership of the Democratic Party. Think about that.
Hey! Mr ? Monitor, If you are going to delete a post for being off topic, don’t you think the intellectually honest thing to do would be first to ask me to move it? Or at the very minimum, allow me to read it so I understand more clearly what your gripe was? Heavy-handiness is not justified with regards to such a serious topic. I know you’ll delete this as off topic, sooo... What are the odds Xi Jinping deletes 10,000’s of lives to assert Chinese power over Hong Kong’s idealists? Total certainty, or just a sneaking suspicion?
The rest of the world looked the other way at the Abu Ghraib (which were applauded by some such as Rush Limbaugh). Therefore, it needs to do the same in HK.
