I think it's reasonable for society to tell people with Corona or Ebola, who are nearing the limits of their life expectancy, that they will not be admitted to a hospital. Great Grandma's right to treatment does not outweigh a 25 year old nurse's or a 40 year old doctor's right to life. What age? I think 80 years on Earth is long enough unless you can survive in home remedies. It is no more inhumane to refuse treatment to an octogenarian than it is to expose an entire hospital staff to Corona.
Sorry there are no poll choices. I accidentally submitted the thread without creating the poll choices. It's okay. There's no toilet paper either, so ....
Call a family member of yours and tell her this yourself. Tell her that because of her age she will be left to die gasping for air, even if she is willing to pay every dime she has for the chance to survive.
I hope she'd be reasonable. Old people can be very wise and protective of the young. But it's interesting that you say "if she'd pay every dime." That's a bilateral consensual contract. I am asking if an octogenarian with Corona has a an enforceable right to hospitalization even without paying anything. I say no. On edit, most old people die gasping. You ever watched it? I have.
Good lord. It's not for you or government to say who should be pushed into death. Elderly need to be hospitalized FIRST....because they are the most vulnerable.
Yes, because they are old. How about a 99 year old with chronic emphysema? He gets Corona. The nurses are overwhelmed, exhausted, and young. Some have small children at home. Don't tell me it's not a dilemma.
If there are triage situations, and there might soon be, physicians make the call on their own professional authority, no questions asked. They're doing just that in Italy. It is right, and it is just. But it makes no difference if a young asymptomatic or a young mildly symptomatic person or an old infected sickly person sheds the corona and infects someone. The Wuhan virus is the same Wuhan virus in old or young. Human beings are the vector, but it is the Wuhan virus that makes another human being sick. Physicians with admitting privileges always work in the biggest sea of germs on earth, hospitals. Well, I guess Wuhan wet exotic animal markets are worse. Hospitals and germs go with the doctoring and nursing job.
My healthy 86 year old dad is still enjoying life. Really, you can choose to die when YOU turn 80, but dont presume you are God. On this board, we have two men past 80, one right wing and one left wing. Maybe they can add their two cents.
I don't presume anything. I see dilemmas and am mature enough to know that life sometimes presents hard choices. I see that you are only considering one side of the equation. I think your view is rigid and unfair to young nurses, doctors and techs who still have their whole lives ahead of them.
True, but oncologists don't catch cancer from their patients. You all see no limits whatsoever to a corona patient's "right" to hospitalization? Just want to be clear with what you are saying. Suppose I'm 95, I smoke and have a history of cancer. I present myself to an ER with symptoms of Ebola and I want in. I have no money. The nurses are terrified. I'm with the nurses.
Happy to hear that. I asked about a 99 year old with emphysema and symptoms of corona. Obviously if the nurses want to treat him, that's fine. Does he have a right to demand it? No matter what?
You might be surprised. Many elderly people are ready to die. They aren’t all anxious to survive at any cost. It depends a lot, on what their quality of life is. If I lose my marbles I hope I can die or be dispatched quickly. Often there are poor frail, demented zombies who are just consumers of health care for years before they die. Ps. Got distracted. There shouldn’t be an automatic right to hospitalisation if you’ve used up your time on earth and or are in poor health with multi co morbidities.
I'm totally down with people choosing then they want to die or drawing a line at which medical care isn't very helpful. In fact I'm open to making this more widely available for those who are elderly or very sick. What I'm not ok with is telling them its time for them to die simply because they are old.
Drawing a line? What line? That's what I have done throughout this thread (!) And how is your line any better than mine?
How reasonable would you be if you were told that its time for you to just lie down and die, and even though you paid those payroll taxes for healthcare for all these years, the only healthcare you are getting is the healthcare you are paying for. Why don't you just call her up and see what her thoughts on your death panel ideas are. People with covid will often get their lungs flooded with fluid, slowly losing the ability to breathe. They are drowning from the inside. So if someone with that sitatution showed up to the hospital, you would just have her escorted out by security, and allow her to suffocate on the sidewalk? Unless of course she is able to come up with some cash from her purse, then she gets let back in.
My line isn't old people being locked out of the hospital. I can assure you my line is a lot better than that.
That isn't my line either. But we are awaiting your line. Be specific and precise. And tie it to Corona and Ebola.
I am asking you to consider all societal interests, not just my or my corona infected great grandmother's personal preference. How reasonable would you be if you were an exhausted ICU charge nurse in Milan right now, changing bedpans for and intubating 50 (100?) patients with Corona, upon being told that an octogenarian, or 5 octogenarians, with histories of cancer, high blood pressure, and emphysema, needed medical attention? You have 3 small children and your own grandmother to take care of at home. They depend on you. That's an easy call?
You can restate it as often or as few times as you want. Not interested in triaging these decisions based on generalities of age. I may with great reluctance agree to do so based on a lousy prognosis secondary to a series of comorbidities like severe COPD, or stage two cancer or advanced alzheimers which impact both life expectancy and severely compromised quality of life, but not based on a number.
Of course, you would. I actually think everyone sane grown up would as well, despite denying it here. Squeamishness, reluctance, or mixed feelings doesn't resolve dilemmas.
Yes, I know, but I shouldn't have to. One either recognizes moral dilemmas or one doesn't. Most of the respondents here cannot, or will not, or pretend that they don't exist at all. They only see one imperative: treat grandma, regardless of the cost to other people or to society. This same dilemma arises in the context of transplants. Heart transplant for a 90 year old smoker? Lung transplant? Why not?