80% of pandemic victims placed on ventilators die - mass euthanasia for the elderly the infirm and t

My guess would be that people aren't being put on ventilation until it's too late and the people would have died anyway.
I'm not suggesting any blame at all only that the people that need ventilators are very sick.

 

Weird.

I would have thought someone who made the claim: "A treatment that kills 80% of patients is at best malpractice" would be able to articulate how the treatment is killing patients.

What exactly did the ventilators do to cause these deaths?

 

Can’t have it both ways

And I notice you rarely back up your claims with valid sources of information

68,000 deaths in just two months

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-death-rate.html

and I agree it is difficult to calculate mortality rates due to the fact that we are only measuring against KNOWN cases.

But the true killer is how it is overwhelming the health care system

 

How so?

I can easily link you to the research papers

Here is a repository of research

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...pathophysiology.571138/page-8#post-1071650510

 

I don't doubt you in this particular instance but you can't complain about other peoples sources and then quote the new york times..

 

Link failed

 

It's a well known issue with positive pressure ventilation. It even has a term, VALI, ventilator-associated lung injury. All this has been known long before covid. It is taught in medical school. The physiological mechanisms of VALI are
-overextension of alveoli
-biotrauma
-oxygen toxicity.

There are really no magic bullets. If ventilation is bad, direct blood oxygenation is too. The machine eventually kills the red blood cells.

That's why I said in a previous post. The doctors are between a rock and a hard place. There is no ideal solution. At one point, medicine cannot help anymore. However, the OP seems to believe it is malpractice. Maybe he should think about what he would do as a doctor to decide to have the patient die today, or give them at least a chance through ventilation for a few more days.

 

This one weird trick saves 20% of patients from the brink of DEATH!

Everyone wants simple solutions to complex problems. The problem itself is too complex for one person to understand, but it better have a solution you can explain to a toddler.

 

I have seen no evidence that ventilators are reserved for only the very sick unless you count people who are still functioning on low O2 levels as very sick. In fact, the ventilators appear to make almost all of Wuhan Coronavirus sicker.

"After 14 days on a ventilator, COVID-19 patient Robert Sidberry took his health into his own hands and ripped the plastic tube out of his mouth, setting off all kinds of alarms and bells.

Turned out, doctors found he could breathe sufficiently without the device and, after another week of recovery, he went home.

But COVID-19 leveled such a beating on his lungs and body that the 55-year-old said he came home April 15 and spent several days in bed hooked to an oxygen machine. He couldn’t walk, not for more than a few steps, he said.

He started the recommended physical rehabilitation, some arm twirls, but they left him so weak he needed the oxygen again."
NEWSDAY EXCLUSIVE, Recovery from COVID-19 is a battle all its own, former hospital patients say, By Craig Schneider, By April 30, 2020.
https://www.newsday.com/news/health/coronavirus/ventilator-rehabilitation-at-home-care-1.44282644

Now the experts are admitting that their treatment of these patients was not evidence based. That is a Bozo No No for healthcare professionals. The evidence is finally making them find better ways to save their patients. For instance with high-flow O2 through the nostrils.

 

I'm glad to see you can appreciate evidence based claims. I'm sure you'll produce an evidence based post that answers my question right away.

 

I did. Read the reply again.

 

In fact, your own source calculated the mortality rate just 6 days after the date of your cited article "that would be about 0.5 percent death rate."

"TRANSCRIPT
Antibody Tests Show High Infection Rate for New York City
About 21 percent of people in New York City who were tested for coronavirus antibodies tested positive, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said."

"This basically quantifies what we’ve been seeing anecdotally, and what we have known, but it puts numbers to it. It changes the theories of what the death rate is. If you get infected, 13 percent of the population is about 2.7 million people who have been infected. If you look at what we have now as a death total, which is 15,500, that would be about 0.5 percent death rate."
THE NEW YORK TIMES, Cuomo Says 21% of Those Tested in N.Y.C. Had Virus Antibodies: Live Updates, The preliminary data suggests that many more New Yorkers may have been infected than was previously believed., Governor Cuomo, Transcript of briefing, 4/23/20.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-update.html

The mortality rate continues to drop as more anti-body tests are administered.
The health system has been overwhelmed by the government ordered shut down of much of the healthcare system. The hospitals are full of empty beds and nurses and doctors have been idled.

 

Again you fail to paste up anything from your cited source that supports your position.
Substantive rebuttal works better.

 

Which reply? The one where you ask me about sharks, or this one now? Those are the only two replies you made to me.

Not a shred of evidence was shown that would define the mechanism by which ventilation caused death.

 

Death after treatment for a car accident is much higher if a patient receives that treatment in a hospital.

Clearly your chances are better if you just walk it off.

 

IOW, you accept a treatment that has a demonstrated failure rate of 80% where failure = death. So, what is the mortality rate for patients not infected with this novel coronavirus who are placed on ventilators? And on what grounds is hydroxychloroquine being rejected as a treatment?

 

You brought up sharks. Why did you do that?

 

I already did. Read it.

 

Please paste up the link you had trouble with. I will try to fix it.

 

To illustrate your confusion with cause.

You're not familiar with the claim that ice cream causes shark attacks? It's a classic example of causal fallacy. You've not demonstrated at all that the intervention caused death. You've correlated death with the intervention. If you can't see the difference, there's no point in this discussion.

 

IOW, the brought up the shark thing to be funny and to show your contempt for me personally?

No wonder you ignored my reply: "Do shark attacks cause kidney failure and blood clots?" Ddy

 

I did not show contempt for you personally. I illustrated exactly where the flaw exists in your conclusion. You've committed causal fallacy.

I did not ignore your reply. I pointed out that questions are not effective tools for answering questions. Did you provide evidence somewhere that ventilators cause kidney failure and blood clots in 80% of covid patients and that was the cause of death? Please point to that evidence.

 

I assumed that you were aware that blood clots and kidney failure are one of the side effects leaving a patient on a ventilator for long periods of time. This is from a source I have cited on this thread that you may have missed.

"Once on a ventilator, patients can't communicate or move around, and thus can't perform basic daily functions like eating and going to the bathroom on their own. And a side effect of being put on a ventilator is delirium, Martin said. It's not easy to be sedated for that long.

Ideally, the sooner patients are off the ventilator, the better they'll do, Martin said.

With COVID-19, doctors are also seeing blood clots occurring in the lungs and bodies of patients on ventilators, and doctors have said that their kidneys have started shutting down."
BUSINESS INSIDER, Coronavirus patients are dying on ventilators. It's leading to a debate over the best way to get oxygen into their damaged lungs., By Lydia Ramsey Apr 10, 2020.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ventilator-high-flow-oxygen-coronavirus-patients-ards-dying-2020-4

 

The people who go on ventilators because of the virus have breathing problems that the virus makes worse. Without the ventilator they would all die. It isn't euthanasia. It is an attempt to save hopeless cases. And they do save some of them.

 

Typically in cases of acute respiratory failure intubation ids the only thing keeping the patient alive. They don't put you on a vent unless they HAVE to. And typically 50% of those intubated die. With Covid that number is 80% . It's not the vent that kills them it just doesn't HELP in a lot of cases..

They have also found that the lungs are SO damaged in SOME cases that intubation can actually damage them further.... in SOME cases.