Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Interesting observation. I often wondered why this is a thing for Muslims (who insist the Quran must be read in Arabic to be fully appreciated) but much less so for Christians.

 

]

Isaiah in its original form was a complete book without chapters etc. You're simply quoting words taken out of context from the book.
Isaiah 9:2-7 refers to Hezekiah. He is given the prophetic title - verse 6.
1. The whole title is expressive of the greatness of God to be shown in Hezekiah.
2. Mighty counsellor. (Isaiah 14:24-27)(Isaiah 37:6-7)
3. Mighty God This name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem (Isaiah 37:33-35)
4. Everlasting father signifies the extra 15 years Hezekiah is given. (Isaiah 38:5)
5. Prince of Peace. Archaeology shows that after the fall of the North many went south and settled. Hezekiah ruled in peace.

You have simply destroyed the Bible with your interpretation. If Christianity or you can interpret it your way, then so can Islam and modern sects.

Interpret Shakespeare from the 17th century before you try interpreting scriptures from the Hebrew 2000+ years old

 

Which again brings us back to my unanswered question: Why would an all powerful being rely on written text and all its limitations (including that it loses a lot in translations and selections by humans of what to include and what not to)? When this being could just magically have you know what he wants you to know, and only then would his judgment of how you respond to what he wants of you make any sense or be a judgement of you on your acceptance or rejection of his message. You cant obey or disobey an order you never receive.

You are all aboard with the crowd of belief in what and who though? In God or in humans who are claiming to know and tell you what God wants? If you don't get your information directly from God, it appears to be the latter.

Except of course, as you admit, he didn't write said book, and certainly not as we have it today. You claim that he inspired it, not wrote it. You are trusting in them as much as you are God, and God, if all powerful, isn't so limited that this need be the case.

 

Yes. We should really refer to "Christians" as Paulians or something. Since it isn't a message they are following from Christ but a heavily altered and spun message by historical humans (as well as their own pastors and priests for those vast majority who rely on such people instead of reading the Bible themselves).

 

I cant speak for Muslims but I dont think its a matter of appreciation. Etymology and its origins are very important when it comes to the bible. The original scripture is in a certain language (hebrew, aramaic whatever) and its important to to learn that langauage (and I know many do not like hearing that) More importantly, it is also forbidden to change any wording, even in its orginal aramaic or hebrew language.

If you walked into a Hebrew bookstore in Jerusalem and opened up deuteronomy, the 107th hebrew word in Deuteronomy will be the same word as the the Deuteronomy book opened up in a store in Tel Aviv. The 37th Hebrew word in Leviticus will be the same. If had better be or the bookstore owner will be in a deep load of chit

 

Are you going to be intellectually honest and admit you do not know 100% that God exists and therefore cannot claim to know what a God does or does not know, or do you only demand intellectual honesty and 100% knowledge of science?

 

We can say with a certainty that Noahs Biblical flood did not happen. Mountains were not covered. Disastrous local floods occurred everywhere. No mountains. were covered. I have studied ancient civilisations around the world. There have been devastating floods - at different times - almost everywhere. Civilisations have been wiped out by cataclysmic events, but never everywhere, or at the same time.

 

uh, yes we can. I've shown you, for an absolute fact, that there was never at any time a global flood in the entire 4.5 billion year history of the earth. You ran away from that post, and we all of course know why.

 

Muslims believe the Quran is a protected book, my guess is we are seeing an evolution of religion, the people who wrote the Quran were aware of the problems with the translations of the bible and so sought to stop the same thing happening to the Quran.

 

On the flip side I think you would agree with me that it would be unfair to label all Christians "Paulians". Even as a child fidgeting in the pews listening to the sermons reciting Paul's letters I understood I wasn't getting the message straight from the source.

Furthermore, I think you would agree that it would be especially unfair to the Christians who do put in the work to sift through the forests of writings in order to gain the clearest possible picture one could possibly hope to obtain of Jesus' actual words and message.

 

That's because Muslims believe that the Qur'an was literally revealed and recited in Classical Arabic so its "truth" is tied to the language it was revealed/recited in.

However, in reality, what Muslims today hear and know about their holy book and religion is translated into their own languages just like Christian scripture, so in a practical sense there is little to no difference.

 

Sorry trev but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I brought me some backing just to illustrate to you it is Christian belief that Isaiah 9:2-7 as well as Isaiah 11:1-5 is referring to Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong feeling you do too as well. Because in your previous post you had asked me the question if those Isaiah verses were referring to Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ. But now you're playing your silly game of denial and accusing me of misinterpreting...this correct interpretation comes from Christian fundamental beliefs, it is not my own personal interpretation it is what Christians have learned, by what they have been taught. So please enjoy reading my post in response to your post.

But anyway let me present Isaiah 9:2-7 in Scripture first.

We Read in Scripture:

2 The people who walk in darkness will see a great light. For those who live in a land of deep darkness, a light will shine. 3 You will enlarge the nation of Israel, and its people will rejoice. They will rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest and like warriors dividing the plunder. 4 For you will break the yoke of their slavery and lift the heavy burden from their shoulders. You will break the oppressor’s rod, just as you did when you destroyed the army of Midian. 5 The boots of the warrior and the uniforms bloodstained by war will all be burned. They will be fuel for the fire. 6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity. The passionate commitment of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies will make this happen! Isaiah 9:2-7 NLT

Ok now read the article below it answers the question how is Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ the Wonderful Counselor in verse 6. This explanation comes from one of the many exceptional well versed Christian websites on the net.

How is Jesus Wonderful Counselor (Isaiah 9:6)?

Isaiah wrote 800 years before Jesus came to remind the Israelites that the Messiah was coming and He would start His Kingdom (Isaiah 9:6–7). He offered them hope. Hope was especially needed at that time because the Assyrians were taking captives as they conquered large areas. "Wonderful Counselor" was one of several titles the Messiah would hold.

The word "Wonderful" meant so good it was beyond understanding or incomprehensible. The word "Counselor" is not like what we think of as a social worker or school guidance counselor, but a wise and trusted ruler.

Beyond the prophesied title, Jesus demonstrated His wonderful-ness by healing people (Matthew 4:23), teaching with authority (Matthew 7:28–29; Luke 4:17–22), living a perfect life (Hebrews 4:15), and more. Then, after suffering an agonizing death, He rose from the dead three days later (Mark 16:6)!

Jesus demonstrated His abilities in knowing people (John 1:47–48; 2:25). He taught wonderful things, truths of God counterintuitive to the human mind. For example, love your enemies (Luke 6:27), rejoice in the midst of persecution (Matthew 5:11–12), don't worry about earthly things but trust in God (Matthew 6:25–34). Paul writes that Jesus knows all wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus always chose the right path (Hebrews 4:15–16). He is certainly able to advise His followers (James 1:5).

By title, by deed, and by witnesses, Jesus is our Wonderful Counselor. He loves us (1 John 4:19) and died for us (Romans 5:6-8. Nothing can separate us from that love. As Romans 8:38–39 says, "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Wonderful-Counselor.html

Ok that's done now let's go to Isaiah 11:1-5 as we read in Scripture.

We Read in Scripture:

A Branch from David’s Line

11 Out of the stump of David’s family will grow a shoot—yes, a new Branch bearing fruit from the old root. 2 And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. 3 He will delight in obeying the Lord. He will not judge by appearance nor make a decision based on hearsay. 4 He will give justice to the poor and make fair decisions for the exploited. The earth will shake at the force of his word, and one breath from his mouth will destroy the wicked. 5 He will wear righteousness like a belt and truth like an undergarment. Isaiah 11:1-5 NLT
Now read the article below to get their explanation of Isaiah 11:1-5

Isaiah 11:1-5 a Shoot from the Stem of Jesse

The message of messianic hope and comfort runs throughout the book of Isaiah. The Hebrew prophet Isaiah reminds his readers in numerous ways that the Lord God reigns! He is sovereign and He is in charge of the affairs of the nations of the world. In chapter eleven Isaiah presents a dynamic contrast to the events in chapter ten. The nation of Assyria (chapter 10), which God used to punish the Northern Kingdom of Israel, will suddenly collapse. Assyria is only a tool in God's hands to accomplish His sovereign purpose with Israel. In contrast to the death of the nation of Assyria, God will raise up a king who will sit on the throne of David throughout eternity.
At the time Isaiah is writing (eighth century B.C.) there were only stumps of dead trees that have been mowed down by the invaders from Assyria. The ax of divine judgment had chopped among the trees, and nothing but stumps was left standing. By the time the Messiah will arrive, seven hundred years later, the house of David will be nothing but an insignificant stump in Israel. It will have fallen upon evil days.

THE EPIPHANY OF THE MESSIAH (11:1)

We have been carefully observing the progression of the messianic hope in Isaiah 2:1-4; 4:1-6; 7:14; 8:24; 9:1-6, and now it comes to full bloom in chapter eleven. In verse one, a descendent of David will reign in righteousness. He will fulfill all these promises and many more in His character and mission.

The Manifestation of the Divine being

"Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit" (Isaiah 11:1). The prophet, no doubt, has in mind 2 Samuel 7:16. The "stem" or "stump," is all that is left of a once mighty tree after it had been cut down. Israel is just a field of burned out stumps on the landscape of world history. Judah and Assyria will fall under the heavy hand of God's judgment. When Assyria fell in 609 B.C. she never budded again. She will always be a lifeless dead stump. God will destroy the destroyer. Assyria is only a tool in the hands of the God of Israel. However, there is a stump with just a twig of life in it. It is the smallest of shoots, but it has a green sprout that will bud and bring forth a righteous ruler in Israel. From this barren, helpless shoot will come the redeemer of Israel (53:1-2). In contrast to the burned out stumps of Assyria, God has brought forth a green "shoot." The lineage of David is not completely dead. God is sovereign. The Messianic branch, David, the eternal King will reign over His people.

There is only one Jesse in the Scriptures and he is King David's father. Although the power of David's lineage will be reduced to its most humble descendents God will raise up a tender branch out of that humility.

The beginnings of the Messiah are exceedingly small. He comes at a time when the descendants of David have reached the deepest humiliation and obscurity. However, this lowly shoot will "bear fruit" which presupposes its growth. Calvin observed: "The Prophet does not mention David; but rather Jesse. For so much was the dignity of that family diminished, that it seemed to be a rustic, ignoble family rather than a royal one." The house of David had become so insignificant and unimportant that it is called "Jesse." The name of David has fallen to the level at which it stood when his father Jesse bore the honor of the family name before David's glory as king. Nothing is left of the family tree, but a root.

The tree of lowly beginnings is Christ.

Herod the Great is anything but a descendent of David. He was a political joke, a murderous monster and puppet of Rome. He purchased his political power from the Romans. There is no royal blood of King David in his veins. He is an Idumaean impostor.

The parallel idea to the "shoot" or twig is the "branch" bearing fruit. A netzer is a fresh green shoot from to shine or blossom. The poor despised Nazarene will spring forth and shine. There is fresh new growth in the lineage of David. He is a growing thing. What lay dormant and thought to be dead is alive and full of fruit. (Cf. Luke 3:23-38, v. 32; Matthew 1:1-25; Revelation 5:5; 22:16).

If you were the prophet Isaiah, would not your heart be filled with a fresh new hope for your people?
The Lineage of the Messiah

Royalty runs through the veins of Joseph and Mary, who are of the lineage of David. Why Joseph is not a king, but a carpenter. Here are just two descendants of King David preparing for a private life, not a throne or presidential palace. Nathanael sarcastically asked Philip, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" (John 1:46). Was he expecting the Messiah to come from Jerusalem? Isaiah picks up on those humble origins again in chapter fifty-three. He refers to the Suffering Servant of the LORD, "like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him" (53:2). He was so despised the religious leaders estimated Him a zero, a nothing. Salvation did not come from the pomp and splendor of the elite royal family of Herod, but from Nazareth.
God will prove Himself faithful and create a royal house from a peasant family in David's lineage. No wonder Herod was so upset when the wise men came telling him that the King of the Jews had been born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1-12).

Hengstenberg in his excellent Christology of the Old Testament writes: "The figure of a shoot or sprout has become so common as a designation of the Messiah, that the name 'Sprout' has almost become a proper name of the Messiah." The "branch" is clearly a reference to the Messiah (Isaiah 4:2; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15).

THE EQUIPMENT OF THE MESSIAH (11:2)

He will not accomplish God's will by human means. This ruler will have the very breath of God upon Him. He will be under the control of "the Spirit of the LORD" (v. 2a). He will not be spiritually barren like the King Ahaz and the Jewish leaders before Him. Unless He is endowed with the Spirit of Yahweh, He will be like the other political leaders. The Old Testament taught the Messiah would be under the control of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the baptism of Jesus coincided with the anointing of Jewish kings. The Father's officiating at the coronation affirms His divine rule (Luke 4:1, 14, 18; Psalm 2:6-9). It is not the human spirit that Isaiah is referring to in verse two, but the Spirit of God producing divine character.

The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

With this description, our minds hearken back to the child with the four names in 9:6. Wisdom, counsel, omnipotence, fatherly security, giver of peace characterizes this king.

Alexander Maclaren observed: "There has never been but one manhood capable of receiving and retaining the whole fullness of the Spirit of God." The Spirit of Yahweh brings all these gifts upon Jesus of Nazareth. Christ came not empty-handed. He came with the fullness of God upon Him. "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). The complete control of the Holy Spirit is who produces the wisdom, understanding, counsel, strength, knowledge and fear of the LORD in His life. Here is one man who was completely at the disposal of God the Spirit every moment of His life on this earth. There was neither taint nor restraint of carnality upon Him. The Lord Jesus Christ possessed the Holy Spirit without measure. In Him is the perfect indwelling of our humanity by the Spirit of God.
He is divinely equipped

All of the equipment comes through the Spirit of Yahweh, perennially and in superlative measure. How did Jesus accomplish the Father's will? He did it like the prophets of old. "'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 4:6). The gospel writer Luke describes how Jesus began His public ministry in his hometown of Nazareth. Jesus entered the synagogue one Sabbath day, as it was His custom. He stood up to read from the scroll that was handed to Him and He read Himself into His sacred office. The passage for the day was taken from Isaiah 61:1-2. (cf. Luke 4:18-19). It begins, "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because he anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of the sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD." Luke tells us Jesus closed the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, sat down, and began to teach them in the synagogue. Jesus said, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing" (Luke 4:21).

The writer John made this observation of Jesus at the beginning of His public ministry. He quotes John the Baptizer, "I have beheld the Spirit descending as [in the manner of] a dove out of heaven; and He remained upon Him. And I did not recognize Him, but he who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God" (John 1:33-34).

THE EXCELLENT REIGN OF THE MESSIAH (11:3-5)

"And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips he will slay the wicked.
Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist."

http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/isa11v1.html

In conclusion, Isaiah 9:2-7 as well as 11:1-5 is in fact referring to Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Si senor! As what I say!

He deserves worship for all eternity! Almighty God The Creator we're talking about here now not some fancy slick hollywood movie star icon like Giovanni Ribisi...lol
Serious now, I mean c'mon, everything you see that exists, He brought it into existence. You see all those trillions of stars in the night sky?...He brought them into existence...I could go on and on and on and on for all eternity of why He deserves all the worship in the world.

Now as far as that tortured stuff, it's not torture but punishment for your sins. If you don't believe in Him, you don't want to worship Him for all eternity then don't believe like how you're doing right now. He gave us all the free will choice to believe or disbelieve, the choice is yours. So if you really believe He doesn't exist and everything you see just came about by some freak magical accident then good luck with that logic.

So the day you find yourself in an existence that is not quite so comfortable just remember you put yourself there. You didn't like the idea of living in paradise for all eternity to live happily ever after then so be it.

You equate a miserable low life rapist with Almighty God The Creator...wow! such unbelievable disrespect...I can only shake my head in disbelief over your insane remark. Well it's your soul and your free will to disbelieve and spew out such vile and hateful speech...wow! just shocking!

 

Mitt See your post 1072545355

Of course that's what Christianity teaches you. I've given you the Hebrew version believed by the Hebrews long before Jesus. You choose to believe the Christian that's up to you. I can tell you that there is no reference to Jesus in the OT You have given me no verse with his name. NO evidence whatever except what Christianity tells you. I've posted several things in the past that you have ignored. You cannot tell me why my version of the Nativity story is wrong because you don't know the period, laws, etc of the time, You can't tell me why Joseph is in Nazareth and Egypt at the same time. Neither can the website you once posted me. When I pointed out a 20 mile trip to the safety of Syria was better than a 300 mile trip to Egypt - silence. Time after time you ignore my posts and others that are too hard, that you have no knowledge of.

All you do is quote, quote, quote from the Bible and Christian websites without studying the real background etc. You have NO idea of reality..That's one reason I left Christianity behind

Alexander Maclaren observed: "There has never been but one manhood capable of receiving and retaining the whole fullness of the Spirit of God." The Spirit of Yahweh brings all these gifts upon Jesus of Nazareth. That's interesting because if Maclaren cared to look at Judaism he would find they assumed Yahweh from a Pantheon of gods - chief of whom is El. So Jesus was a grandson of El. If he was divine of course. Another one who hasn't searched the history of Judaism to get things straight.

The gospel writer Luke describes how Jesus began His public ministry in his hometown of Nazareth. Wrong. Jesus taught in synagogues before he entered the synagogue in Nazareth. And anyway, how accurate is Luke if he did actually write the gospel. All his information is very much second/third hand.

Jesus was baptised as many a repentant Jew was. The Dove is just a Christian addition. Though it is a symbol of peace.

The fact is that Maclaren is simply stating Christian belief without any understanding of Judaism. Another misinterpretation of the Tanakh.

Only recently have true Bible students begun to realise that they need to study the Bible as it was written 2000 years ago. Many priests of all denominations, and free church ministers are re-reading the Bible in the light of modern knowledge. If you wish to stick to dogmatism that's your privilege. Just a shame you will never know the truth.

Now it's 00.30 hours and I'm off to bed.

 

That is true in your first statement, however in your 2nd statement I wouldn't put a rubber stamp on that. I just need to bring up the Great Flood of Noah to point out that because of sin God punished all but 8 people.

Furthermore it is Almighty God who controls everything so of course that includes the weather.

We Read in Scripture:

29 “All right,” Moses replied. “As soon as I leave the city, I will lift my hands and pray to the Lord. Then the thunder and hail will stop, and you will know that the earth belongs to the Lord. Exodus 9:29 NLT

6 The Lord does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths. 7 He causes the clouds to rise over the whole earth. He sends the lightning with the rain and releases the wind from his storehouses. Psalm 135:6-7 NLT

13 When he speaks in the thunder, the heavens roar with rain. He causes the clouds to rise over the earth. He sends the lightning with the rain and releases the wind from his storehouses. Jeremiah 10:13 NLT

 

As you’ve been shown Mitt, there has never been, at any point in the entire 4.5 billion year history of the earth, a global flood. At no point in all of human history, was the species wiped out except for only 8 homosapiens. We know this mitt, scientifically. I’ve proven this to you mitt, scientifically.

 

You need to remember the Bible tells you you are wrong. There are stories all over the world of ancient disasters - floods and 'dragons' from the sky (meteorites or asteroids), earthquakes. . In some cases 2 people are told to go to a mountain top. In another a cave, in another underground. It's quite clear that catastrophes have occurred but Noahs mountain covering floods are not possible.

 

No, trev you got it wrong as usual. Although David was referring to himself in Psalm 51:5, that holds true for all human beings. We are all born sinners. Ever since our first parents Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden that sinful inheritance has been passed down to all human beings...this sin nature if you will. This is Christian fundamental belief...we are all born with this sin nature and yes I know Judaism doesn't believe that but this thread as you well know is all about Christian beliefs.

Let me bring up those verses.

We Read in Scripture:

5 For I was born a sinner—yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5 NLT

3 These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way. Psalm 58:3

I will continue later on with this post because you had more to say on it. I'm going to watch my favorite past time on the tele...it's the Toronto jays vs the New York yanks aka the bronx bombers...oh yeah!

 

Scripture certainly talks about the universal reach of sin. But no passage or verse in scripture speaks definitively to the concept of an inborn sin nature. We can take sin seriously without going there. After all, Jesus didn’t believe in original sin, and the disciples and the early church didn’t either. What we see in scripture is a story of people sometimes behaving terribly and people sometimes behaving righteously. It’s often the same people. Some call that a sin nature. I think we simply call it human nature.
Pastor Shroyer. 'Original Blessings. Put sin in its rightful place'

You quote Psalm 51 NLT

Here's the Hebrew
ז הֵן-בְּעָווֹן חוֹלָלְתִּי; וּבְחֵטְא, יֶחֱמַתְנִי אִמִּי. 7 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. The Hebrew word

The whole idea comes with a belief in Adam and Eve. And most people don't believe in fairy stories, even if they are adapted from earlier stories.

I;m afraid your explanations and quotes from the Bible mean nothing when you can't even answer simple questions like 'Where is the name of Jesus found in the OT'. or why would Joseph travel 300 miles to Egypt, just because of some Christian symbolic OT reference, when he could have gone 20 miles to safety in Syria.

Hope your team won..

 

A child has no cognizance of sin. To be born sinful is to have been sinful in the pre existence from whence we come to life. You could say that children are born mortal, but not necessarily sinful. Children haven't made any choices or actions that might be taken as a sin. They are little lambs, romping in endless green pastures. Of what has a little child to repent so as to be baptized and washed. He/she would be no different after than before baptism. No moment of realization where a child might think, "Oh my God, what have I done!" from which to repent and be baptized. They are as innocent in birth as Jesus Christ in death, imo. Like Jesus said to his Disciples, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." As for King David, I think he was seeking sanctuary from his own guilt, and mistakenly laid it upon his birth because he carried his own adult guilt back with him in considering his conception, and could not find sanctuary. So he reasoned his origin in sin. Such was the fervor of his quest to regain Gods good grace which David himself had betrayed. It was his beg for forgiveness. When he speaks of others who even from birth have lied and gone away, he is commenting on culture which misleads the young and corrupts them early in their development. Not at conception, birth or childhood itself. We have no one to blame for our sins, but ourselves and our own choices. To say that our guilt resides in our birth is to not have acknowledged our own guilt or repented at all. It is essentially fraud. And I don't think it fools God if it doesn't fool someone as muddled and common as myself. But who we really cheat when we try to fool God is ourselves, because everything he does is for us. Our immortality, eternal life, and excellence, is his eternal work and glory. I would not call it righteous to cheat ourselves and disappoint God. It would be akin to blaming God for our sins and walking boastfully and proud, saying God made us sinners so we are pure but he is not....and crucify Jesus all over again. We are supposed to repent of our sins, and ask for forgiveness. Not make excuses for them and blame God.

 

That's why I did say that Christians do believe all infants and young children who die go straight to heaven, this is a Christian fundamental belief. These young ones are indeed innocent, they are not capable to understand moral accountability.

Here is a very good explanation from one of the many excellent Christian sites on the net.

Is there an age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies that die?

The concept of an age of accountability is that there is a certain age at which people become accountable to respond to the gospel of Jesus for salvation. Before this time, this belief teaches that children who die go to heaven because they were not old enough to understand what it means to choose faith in Christ. Some writers also call this time period the age of innocence.

Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. Others use 20 years of age, based on the age given regarding those who would die in the desert due to their unbelief during the time of Moses (Numbers 14:29-30). However, the Bible gives no direct support for a particular age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

When discussing this important issue, many point to 2 Samuel 12:21-23 in which King David fasts and prays for his infant son who is ill. When the child dies, David stops fasting and mourning. His servants are confused, and they say, "'What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.' He said, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, "Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?" But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.'" In these words, several observations can be made.

First, David was confident he would once again see his infant son who had died. The only place David would have in mind is in the afterlife.
Second, David had a positive future in mind. Some have argued that this is merely a reference to death in general, but the fact that David is no longer in mourning means he has a much better ending in mind.

Third, David found comfort when his child passed away. Why? His view of God included a deep understanding of God's love and graciousness, as demonstrated in the Psalms authored by David.

While the Bible does not directly state that young children or others unable to make a decision to follow Christ by faith will be in heaven, there is no reason to believe that God would not choose to mercifully save those who cannot make a faith decision. God's mercy extends to all sinners at a time when they cannot help themselves (Romans 5:8 ) We can also take into account 1 John 2:2, which teaches that Jesus is "the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." This verse is clear that the death of Christ is sufficient for all sins. If God has chosen to cover the sins of young children and others unable to come to Him by faith, then the blood of Christ is certainly sufficient to do so.

In the end, the age of accountability is not a certain age but the theological idea that God's grace extends to those too young to make a decision to follow Christ by faith as the Bible teaches (Ephesians 2:8-9). We can trust that the Lord's grace covers those unable to respond as He has commanded, yet we must continue to strive to share the gospel message to all who can believe and stand in need of the salvation only Jesus provides. Salvation does not only affect our afterlives, but our present lives. There is no greater gift, and those of us who know Jesus have been tasked with sharing the gospel with the world.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/age-of-accountability.html

 

Sure, I can agree with that. But even then, they'd still be relying on a message handed down (though the best possible preservation), and they'd also be trusting in the people claiming Jesus claimed what he claimed.

And I would still be left wondering that if Jesus did claim what we are told he claimed, and these claims are true, then why would he or "our father", an all powerful God being, communicate with such extreme limitations and obvious confusion and differing interpretations and conflict therefrom, which surely such a being would foresee, and thus intend.

 

Mitt Ryan 1246.

Another load of tripe. There was no wandering in the desert (Exodus) so that is nonsense about the age of 20. 13 is the age when most children of the day reached puberty. They were much more advanced in adult terms than today's children. As soon as they were able they were set to work with their father or mother and from an early age began to 'mature'. in terms of real life. By the age of puberty most boys had enough knowledge from their father of work and maintaining a family. Girls watched their mothers maintain the home and please their husband. This was absolutely necessary for the time in which they lived. At the age of 13 give or take a few years, they were 'adults'. Usually it was the parents who decided when the children were mature enough to marry. Given the hard life and lifespan of the time it was necessary for the bride to give birth to children from an early age.

Your websites are pretty useless when it come to reality of the OT. They simply spout Christian doctrine.

Jews have NEVER believed in original sin. So how could David actually believe in it. A child is born innocent - regardless of its parents.

Your Psalm 51 tells it all.in the Hebrew. 'Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me'..
David excuse was his own birth. His mother conceived him in sin. We don't know the offence but conceiving in marriage - between married couples -is no sin. So what was the sin? Adultery promiscuity? We son't know. So he was born in iniquity. Not his own, his mothers. . -

 

No you're not causing any upset because I fully understand your position, you don't fully understand Scripture. You have this critic mentality that is hindering your ability to interpret Scripture correctly, you want to discredit more than you are willing to understand Scripture.

You can't see how the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Holy Bible complements each other due to this hindrance of yours. Let me refresh your memory just in a recent post to you I said, "Matter of fact there are over 300 messianic prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah—Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ—many involving His death and resurrection. Most of these prophecies were given hundreds or even thousands of years before Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ was born; yet we see that He fulfilled all of them."

These prophecies made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in the Scriptures of the New Testament.

So again you're not causing any upset because I fully understand your position, you don't fully understand Scripture. You have this critic mentality that is hindering your ability to interpret Scripture correctly, you want to discredit more than you are willing to understand Scripture.