Patriotism

Maybe. But nobody could. And, the amount of fraud and conspiracy that it would take to actually pull it off would be even more.

 

There was no attempted coup .. claiming an small number of unarmed people protesting an election result is an attempted coup .. is obscene totalitarian nonsense on steroids. .. you have just labeled every protest a "coup" .. can't think of many things more "undemocratic" than that kind of thinking.

 

I believe my vote is only important if the people who count it are held accountable to doing so accurately. And at certain levels, I don't believe they are. I continue to vote for a variety of reasons, including to have my dissent to certain agendas technically on record (admittedly this is more for metaphysical reasons than because I think it will make any difference), and to try to keep my local representation (where my voice is a lot more potent by virute of its 'share' being less dilluded by sheer numbers) in check and harder to 'fudge' with fraud.

 

Your admission that "maybe" the Trump admin would have tried to suppress evidence of election fraud had they succedded in 'stealing' the election is all you need to share an empathic viewpoint with those who believe the Biden admin did presicely the same thing. Whether you actually embrace that empathy or refuse it, is of course, entirely up to you.

 

Trying to violently overturn a lawful election.

 

I only say maybe because he was very out in the open about stealing the election. But we are right back to the wife example. If you just 'believe' the trumpistans, with no evidence, and you decide to end your country on that word, your country didn't really mean anything to you to begin with.

 

Here's the thing man. This is all on video. The evidence is everywhere. It takes a LOT to pretend this was just a protest and that was all there was. It may be hard to understand, but if you were American, you would try to see things from the side of America. If you tried being a little patriotic, you might not have to work so hard to pretend not to see things. And believe me, being a patriot feels much better than being a traitor.

 

I'm not talking about believing the same things they believe, I'm talking about accepting that they arent necessarily lying about the things they claim to believe. They could still be incorrect, mind you. That would mean accepting that maybe they arent intentionally trying to 'end democracy', but are simply having that effect (from your perspective) by trying to defend it from what you see as incorrect claims of fraud. Opposing a fraudulent election would be defending democracy if the election were actually fraudulent, right? You admitted you would suspect the Trump admin of oppressing evidence had the results been the other way, so surely you can understand why 'the other team' would have the exact same suspicions.

 

We're in a two turn circle here, but I'll lay a final one down.

I would not end democracy because I WANTED to believe my side won. I care deeply about my country. Even if I had good reason to suspect foul play, I wouldn't want to just overturn elections (see bush v gore, trump russia 2016). Because my country is more important than my team. Stop the steal people are the opposite. Their team and their feelings vastly outweigh their concern for the country. But, even if trump had won, I would still have to have a reason to think something was going on that wasn't just a bunch of super notorious liars and whiners simply crying that they didn't win. But, I'm not a republican, I'm an American.

 

Let's also be clear here. There has been no 'defense' of the vote, or country, or against fraud. There have not been good faith investigations, thoughtful presentations of evidence, lawsuits that weren't so incompetent as to get the lawyers disbarred, or even lawful protests. There has only been mega partisan underhanded witch hunts, evidence free squealing on tv and rallies, frivolous evidence free court appearances that have gotten almost everyone sanctioned for violating everything the courts stand for, backroom dealing with foreign influence, and one attempt to violently change the leadership of the country. This is not for Americans, this is all about killing America.

 

no one tried to use violence to overturn an election - That's nonsense speak - you are making things up that did not happen.

That some violence happens at a protest -- in this case as the result of pushing and shoving - typical in such mobs .. does not mean violence was being used to overturn an election in general .. this is moronic - even if on the surface the XXX in the crowd might see some logic ..

You are trying to turn anyone who protests an election result -a protest where things get out of hand - into a "Terrorist" - whether you realize it or not .. .. and I just ain't buying that Totalitarian trope.

 

So while you yourself would "maybe" suspect suppression of election fraud evidence had Trump won, those who claim to suspect the same of the Biden admin are simply 'lying.'

...not sure why I keep trying to get partisan radicals to understand eachother, it never works...

 

What is this "If you were American" nonsense ... as if you know the first thing about the meaning of the word .. never mind the arbiter of what that entails - having no apparent clue about what Patriotism means .. speaking in a way that is an anathema to the founding principles, justice, and the rule of law.

Who is the Traitor here ? I say the ones who wish to demonize unarmed protestors and those linked to the protest as "Terrorists" so you can punish them real hard .. in an effort to stifle free speech .. lable any protestor or associate of a protest that turns violent .. .. "Domestic Terrorist" .. That will teach em .. aye mate !

 

Viewing your own countrymen as the enemy because of their beliefs is not patriotism. As long as Americans are at each others throats, government can continue spending our money like thieves with stolen credit cards. Your side of the same ugly coin is no different.

 

IT'S LITERALLY AMAZING TO ME HAT THE PEOPLE HELL-BENT ON DESTROYING DEMOCRACY TRY TO SAY SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING IT, AND THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS...
AND HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE AT.

 

Because you are doing everything you can not to understand. Look, I do get the slackjaws that probably really believe they think the election was stolen. That is ONLY because they want to. Because they never really respected their country, and tucker is more important to them. And of course they melted what brains they had on a concerted right wing propaganda campaign that demands they only believe what they are told. But, who is the person who heard limbaugh say: 'Hey, know what's better than America? Discriminating against different types of Americans! Especially the ones that were born different.' : and thought 'Yeah, this is for me.' It was no patriot who loved their country. That's about the only thing you can say for certain.

 

I'll tell you what someone who isn't a traitor would say when someone wanted to put a spoiled brat failson in charge of America because he played a businessman on tv: No, I love my country, why would I ever do that? What would they say if that failson was president and tried to blackmail a foreign power into helping him subvert democracy and keep his power?: No thank you, in my country, we believe in self sovereignty, and that actions have consequences. What would a person who was NOT a traitor say when that maniac clearly lost, and then abused every ounce of power given by the people to take as much power away as he could? Tried, and to this day is still trying to end free elections? And if there was an entire party that had no other purpose but to try to end elections in that magnificent country? Why, he would say no sir! If absolutely nothing else, we don't have kings in this country! We decide, not some spoiled brat rich kid from new york! This isn't nazi hungary, we VOTE in this country.

But, what does the traitor say? "Dear masters of internet and television, we see this naked display of a weak man trying to grab power in a display as old as time like every other dictator and monarch that has ever existed. I see clearly his failed and pathetic attempt to violently regain power and it was so undeniable even in it's sheer stupidity. But alas, I have pledged my soul to this idiot. I can't stand the freedom of America, so my loyalty to the stupid and weak must be absolute. Oh breitbart, tell me exactly what to see, what to think what to say and feel and I promise to never lift a finger for my country again!"

The master replies "There are thousands of hours of footage of this failed coup, but they are sacrilege, you must NEVER watch them. The coup was so pathetic that you may act as if you are such a dullard that you think it was just an unarmed protest. You may even draw false comparisons. Never listen to anyone but us, only think as we say, but, you must now be against democracy, even if you have to pretend you don't understand that you are"

"Thank you oh so much. I couldn't possibly care less about anything like America! Only so long as I never have to think I was wrong. Death to voting, long live trump, death to America!!!"

 

BoTh SIdeS aRe ExaCtly The SAMeeeee....

It's easy, just draw some connection to the really horrible side and a normal side (no matter how preposterously tenuous), and claim they are the same. Now, no mater who you hurt, you can tell yourself that you are being reasonable since the other side is "just as bad" no matter how unbelievably far apart they are.

 

Yeah yeah, I changed your words, but, this is more honest.

 

What exactly does the left offer?

Higher taxes?
More and more "free stuff" programs for the lazy, effectively buying their votes?
Socialism?
Theft of the means of production, intellectual property, and real property ownership, without compensation?
More and more inflation?
A total lack of law enforcement?
More and more illegal aliens, who are not only turned away or deported, but are financially rewarded?

Should I go on?

The left offers nothing of worth to our, or for that matter, any society. It's all about punishing success, rewarding and encouraging sloth, and bringing the finest country mankind has ever known to it's knees.

Oh, and you speak of patriotism... Earlier in my life, I wrote a blank check to the United States, up to and including giving my life in her defense. Did you? After 9/11 I attempted to rejoin, but they apparently thought I was too old. Yes, I proudly fly the flag, and sing the songs, but I also walked the walk. What have you done to make the same claim?? Do you honor our veterans, or spit on them? If you're so big on more and more taxation, have you voluntarily paid more than is legally required? Or do you just post complete bullshit on anonymous internet forums designed to inflame, rather than offer anything productive?

 

None of those are things the 'left' offers, but I'll tell what the left offers that the right does not: America.

I may or may not have served. And a lot of people served for a lot of different reasons. Here's dirt honest truth for you if you're strong enough to handle it or not. The republicans tried to steal America. And a lot of people let them. If it weren't for the tiny minority of leftover republicans that actually cared a tiny bit about their country, they might have done it. They are working overtime to make sure they don't make that mistake again, and folks who are not loyal to America are letting them. So, it doesn't matter if someone was Audie Murphy. If they come home and just let a rich brat from new york steal their country, they didn't sign up for their country. They signed up for glory, for a uniform, to tell the girls they saw combat, for a chance to shoot someone darker than them, but it absolutely was not patriotism. Because when the time came that the American way of life was legitimately under threat and all they had to do was not support it, they turned tail and failed. They abandoned lady liberty on the side of the road and ran as hard as their little legs could take them over the hill. They pulled up her skirts, stuffed her into that rich boys trunk for him, just hoping he would toss them a nickel, and never got it. But they are still trying to sell her. I suppose I might make up stuff about socialism, and try to distract with racist panics if I was that shameful. But patriotism? lolololol... no sir. that was never actually on the menu. That was an act you see, an accessory, something to show off at parties and play pretend with friends. It was loud, but not real.

 

Where is it written that one is entitled to have someone else pay for their healthcare expenses from cradle to grave? Oh, as for "self-defense", it was not the right that was attempting to crucify Rittenhouse for what was one of the clearest cases of self-defense I've ever seen. It was SO obvious that the prosecutors ought to be sanctioned just for bringing charges in the first place.

 

I like the old saying "patriotism is loving your country always and your government when they deserve it".

 

Lol, I'd say one could have a very long in depth discussion about what patriotism is, and probably never have a good answer, but that's not a bad first order approximation.

 

Re:#4 & #5...The people that espouse those views and stand behind them don't recognize or don't care they are biased. The country they want is the one in which they have all the privilege. Bottom line.

And, in order to reach that agenda, they have to fight tool and nail, twist themselves into pretzels and outright wear blinders. We see they are fighting about minorities in commercials and having their own tv shows, CRT in schools because *their* history is required for all students but we must never tell them about all the people, from all races and cultures that helped build and sustain this country, and black and brown people are "all stupid and lazy" and all of them that get brutalized by cops did *something* to cause it (even it's just sleeping in their own house in their own bed), etc..

Now, before you begrudge them that, try to understand that we are talking about people born during a time when it was okay to lynch minorities, not give them the right to equal access to housing, loans, education or anything else, to have all of them not enter through a front door (the White House has twice as many restrooms just for this reason), to make them sit at the back of the bus, etc..

And, ALL of those things are still happening today. They are just disguised better and I do have some issues with that. If a person is bigoted toward <whatever their target is> and is not silenced by government trying to create "polite society" we all know where they stand. Muting their voices only makes their hatred and resentment deeper so there is no "advantage" of trying to legislate feelings.

I've spoken openly about being a child abuse survivor. In actuality, it happened for decades beyond the age of 18. I never turned to drugs, alcohol or promiscuity because I didn't want to compound my pain. However, as I sought help and did the hard work of unpacking all that, I discovered that I could "make sense" of my mother's abuse and not "make sense" of my father's abuse.

Here's why...

My mother is always on "10". She spins on a dime and unleashes it all on me. Sometimes, she had her friends come over to hold me down while she beat the hell out of me. But, here's the thing. When a person is angry and they express that anger, they are relieved of the burden because, even for a short while, they get to lob it onto someone else.

My father was very even keeled even when drinking. But, if I had to estimate, I would say he gave me the silent treatment about 95% of my whole lifetime. He was a cop so he knew how to find me. He's beaten me in public, at my place of employment, in my own home, etc. and 99% of those beatings weren't preceded by anything I could identify that I did to set him off. He would just kick in my door, beat me and leave me unconscious in a pool of my own blood.

Yes, both of those approaches were very, very painful. But, my father's abuse was *more* painful. There was no pathway to understanding what I had done *wrong* because he never told me. It's impossible to address an issue if you don't know what it is. And, this was solidified when I got married. My MIL hated me but, like my father, she just ignored me most of them time. Again, that leaves me, the target, with a giant question mark and NO chance at resolving it.

And, in this same light, when minorities (race, culture, creed, sexuality, religion, etc.) are *allowed* to exist free from slurs and lynching and crosses on their front lawns, the bigotry does NOT stop or lessen. It increases because they are angry they have to not project it in the ways they want to or used to be able to do legally. This is why crimes against and arrests of minorities after Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday became a holiday and Obama being elected increased.

This has become even more apparent in recent months because the Biden Administration is trying to balance the playing field for people who were not even allowed to step on it. And, yet, EVEN WITHIN THAT, we see that many of the people that never faced that are not only complaining about, protesting it and not okay with it ....they STILL have the advantage of "being" validated and heard. That's not a luxury afforded anybody else speaking out about discrimination. They are discriminated again on the backside with having their voices silenced by "the privileged" calling them liars or digging up dirt to invalidate their voices or claiming since there is no "written" law that says they can be discriminated against, it doesn't exist. And, this is why I say this approach is more insidious. If a person could not be hired because of discrimination, and the company is forced to have representation of the people they serve, they hire the bare minimum of people and they are always referred to as "tokens" and the employers do anything and everything they can to justify terminating them so it can be claimed they couldn't find qualified workers within that <what demographic>. That's not progress. That's the same age old "us v. them" since this country was founded. Adding rainbows and sparkles to it doesn't pretty it up in the least bit.