What is your relationship with Western civilisation?

Do you feel comfortable in it?
Think it could do with some adjustments?
Think it is a beacon for general good or is harmful?
Is it to be applauded or did it support some of the worst crimes ever done by humans to each other?
What are the best things about it?
Where is it going?
Will it ever end and why?

Go on. Have a go!

 

That's a very broad topic.

Yes I feel comfortable in it. I'm a Westerner after all, so it's what I know as "normal."

I think it's generally been a force of good and has pushed human development, both philosophically, and technologically. The Chinese and I suppose the Indian civilizations are older, but the West has contributed far more to the entire world than either of those.

I think it's already ended. It's just been so incredibly rich and powerful for so long, that it can still keep chugging along for a while before falling flat on it's face. Adam Smith said, "There's a lot of ruin in a nation," and I think that goes for civilizations too. But eventually we'll be reduced to sputtering fumes and vanish, and another civilization will take over.

 

I would call the relationship between me and western civilization, cordial but not terribly close. We say hello in passing and can exchange pleasantries but we no longer go out for drinks or hang out together. Those days mostly ended when I left college.

I just don't think about western civilization much anymore and its not a priority in my life.

 

I found this Professor's comments on western civilization and the church to be very insightful, I agree with him entirely, but consider our civilization to be in steep moral decline.

https://rmx.news/egyeb/as-wokeism-g...nd-become-ever-more-politically-conservative/
Do you think that Christianity is essential to a conservative movement? Western Europe obviously is moving further and further away from Christianity each year. Even Germany’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) was considering removing the “Christian” part of its title. So, can conservatives really afford to focus on Christianity as the West continuously abandons it?

"It is clear the West has become more and more de-Christianized, though with many regional differences, and that the Churches themselves are divided. On the one hand, we find leftist-liberal Christians following the mainstream churches, which are transforming more and more into some form of spiritual facade of Wokeism. This tendency is especially present in Protestant churches, but it also slowly affects the Catholic church: everywhere, the complex and age-old dogmatic and theological content of Christianity is replaced by just some form of vague and superficial social commitment, which is very often focused on mainstream topics such as helping refugees and saving the climate.


Is Christianity lost? Not necessarily. Of course, the West and Christianity — or rather, our Western civilization and our specific Western form of Christianity — are deeply intertwined, but they are not identical, as there are many forms of Christianity outside of the West, e.g., in sub-Saharan Africa, China or Korea. But of course, any form of restoration of the West must be combined with the restoration of Christian identity, as the idea of a Western civilization devoid of Christianity would be monstrous and could not survive in the long run.

Trying to drop Christianity, as some libertarian “conservatives” wish for, while going back to the “good old” ’70s where society was still more or less dominated by a conservative frame of mind while allowing for a certain libertarian freedom would be nonsense, as this precarious equilibrium depended precisely on the existence of the last vestiges of Christian morality. Without Christianity, the modern West must fall into pure relativism and nihilism, and I am deeply convinced that more and more Europeans will grasp this simple truth, while Christianity will become more and more conservative."​

 

Western civilization (i.e. the Romans) gave us aqueducts (running water), dependable roads, medicine, the rule of law and wine. Oh yes, the wine.

 

I am comfortable in it having grown up with it, but I think western civilization places far too much emphasis on the material world, and almost none on the spiritual world.

 

When one thinks of Western civilization, one should think of the Germans, since they seemed to have had the greatest impact on it. Their strength as far as I can tell, is that they are communal minded and therefore able to progress as a society rather than being limited to a family unit. Once a society is progressive, then brilliant minds can enter into it from all over the world and contribute whatever they can to it - as they have.

As for civilization in general, I'm a devout Christian so I believe that all people and nations have had their ups and downs on civility and barbarism throughout history. I believe it depends on the extent of faith within people's hearts within that society. The stories in the OT are perfect examples of what happens when people and nations pull away from the Love force that binds them, and those acts have been repeated over and over again throughout history.

If God is presented in the OT as a punishing God, that's only because people would not be able to understand the destruction that they are bringing upon themselves in any other way. From what I know, everything that has occurred in the OT has happened over and over again throughout history, and it will occur today as well - although on a much larger scale.

Right now we are in one of the worse times imaginable because Western civilization has strayed from its Christian roots and embraced paganism and is trying to impose its false ideology on the whole world. This can only lead to destruction.

 

So far almost all the replies have centered around Christianity as the response to Western civilization.
How about broadening that out to trade, exploration, science, social attitudes such as racism (arguably a product of Western civilization), the clear move towards democracy, individuality, personal freedom and equality, universal suffrage, democracy and how we interact with the rest of the world...foreign policy, foreign aid, trade blocks and alliances?
Western civilization grew because it freed itself from the doctrinal constraints of what Christianity was in the renaissance and enlightenment. It could be argued the Christianity had to change to keep up with human discovery, so I personally do not accept that Western civilization and Christianity are synonymous.
The question then is how do you relate to the West? Do you see places where we are weak? Too idealistic? Too generous? Not running our democracies properly ? Are people too opportunistic? Or is the west the best place to grow our knowledge of the world around us?
And do you feel you can support the ideals it upholds?

 

Well I didn't mention Christianity but it's hard to imagine Western Civilization outlasting Christianity, particularly since those who've freed themselves from the shackles of religious dogma stop having children at even replacement level, so there doesn't seem to be much of a future for the post-Christian West.

 

But there always have been faiths other than Christianity which have given huge amounts of benefit to Western civilization.
All three Abrahamic faiths have contributed in areas like navigation and seafaring, mathematics, economics, trade, methods of construction...one strength supports many more that develop.

 

Christianity and the West are intertwined. Islam has been a combatant to the West, not a part of it.

 

Oh dear no.
Islam until 1492 was an integral part of Western culture, skilled in the maths and science that built places like thecAlhambra in Spain. They developed arches that were copied by Christians and which supported many churches and cathedrsls.
Their mathematical skills were their foundation in navigation, without which early Christian civilisation would not have sailed in exploration, trade and conquest.
Their understanding of geometry led to trigonometry, calculus and further, arguably into space.
Your assessment does not go back nearly far enough in the development of Western civilisation.

 

Western Civ has its ups and has its downs.

On the one hand it has it raped, pillaged and enslaved the Western Hemisphere, but on the other hand it established human rights and ended slavery for the world.

On another hand it created an economic system that has raped pillaged and exploited the planets resources but it has also reduced poverty, increased health care standards and improved the standard of living for all.

I could go on but I only have two hands.

 

The only real difference between western civilization and eastern civilization as far as crimes against humanity is that we readily acknowledge ours.

 

While I'm a fan of Western civilization, I can't think of any item you mention here that doesn't predate the Romans.

 

I'm not minimizing the mathematical contributions of Islamic culture, but the idea that Islam was an integral part of Western Culture is ridiculous. We got gunpowder from the Chinese but that didn't make Chinese culture an integral part of Western culture.

 

Muslims occupied and thrived in western Europe as far north as Poitiers and Tours, half way up France before they were driven out of Spain in 1492 by Ferdinand and Isabella. The voyages of Columbus were then financially viable , after years of his asking for investment. I am surprised you didn't cover this in your history lessons.
Muslims occupied sicily, crete, the Balkans, Syria and part of Southern Italy. In many places they were the dominant population. Contributions include music, wonderful poetry and refinement of local languages, architecture and art and a much improved trading system.
You might be interested in doing some googling.

 

I think there is quite a bit of revisionist history with what you are learning. Islam has always been a combative religion. Islam thrives today but doesn't really offer much in the way of financial security, economic well-being, freedom of thought, ...its authoritarian at its core. Christianity at its core is based on free will. Not to say people didn't abuse their power in its name at times in history...but free will is strong in the doctrine.

Western civilization flourished when Christianity and its values flourished...creating a culture that allows us even today, to enjoy its fruits.

I can't think of a civilization that offers more that I would want. AND if Christianity wasn't the majority religion in our western history then our western culture wouldn't even exist.

 

What exactly should I Google? You aren't telling me anything (so far) I don't know. What's different is your interpretation of it. This is the first time I've heard the idea that Islamic culture is part of Western culture. Samuel Huntington considered them quite separate civilizations and as far as I know so does almost every other legitimate scholar.

Your argument sounds akin to saying that since I can get good Chinese food in every town in America, then America is a fusion of Chinese and Western culture.

 

You are still assessing the islam you see today.
Back when the Muslims were in thosecareas, everyone behaved like that . Europe was just recovering from Roman rule which was not known for human rights, Christianity was weak and had only arrived in Ireland, and was hardly a sophisticated culture.
As for combative, it was the Christians who crossed into Europe and hacked pillaged and raped their way to Jerusalem.
When Christians were living in wooden huts and hauling water in hide buckets, Muslims were building sparkling fountains, complicated dam systems, building spacious palaces when the richest Christians lived in stone towers.
I already pointed out what they gave to the West which was then taken when they were driven out of Europe.
They gave Western civilisation a huge boost in many aspects of its development.

 

I am surprised that you balk at the idea that Muslims have positively added to Western civilisation.
Don't overlay todays situation on what reality was 1500 years ago. You aren't some sort of traitor to a cause if you recognise the value of what they left.
That would be silly.

 

Yes, but Christianity was the foundation of European civilization in the same way that Judaism was the foundation of Christianity. Everything evolves from everything else.

 

I think the real reason the Arabs progressed during their Golden Age is because they entered the Greek city of Alexandria with all its libraries, schools etc. and that it was probably due to the Greek, Syrian and Egyptian converts who really had no choice but to convert. I might be wrong, but I find it a little odd that the schools in Alexandria are never mentioned when it was the hub of learning for hundreds of years.

This would explain why the Golden Age didn't continue because I see Islam as very stifling and that doesn't give much reign to free thought. In this way, it's very different than the Far East, where classical music can be heard even in public places.

So when you say that Islam expanded into all those countries, and that they benefitted by them, you are right. The question is though, did Islam benefit anything from their contact with Europe and the outside world?

Anyway, there might be a religious reason for it. The Quran itself, which is supposed to be beautiful and mesmerizing in Arabic, is merely an affirmation of the perfection of their own culture at the time of Mohamed. Islam also believes that Mohamed superseded Christ. This would mean that if they accepted anything Western and Christian, that would be seen as a denial of their own faith and beliefs.

 

Christianity and Islam are in permanent conflict. Christianity is foundational to Western Civilization and Islam is an existential threat to Western Civilization.

 

Indeed.
But as for the nature of islam at the time, it was no different to any other "culture". The concept of free will and the renaissance/enlightenment that released the control of priests had not happened yet. And while they freed the mind in the West, Islam never experienced it. IMO the most important factor in the cultural divisions we see today.
Muslims BTW acknowledge Jesus as a great prophet. The just don't see him as the son of God. Very like Judaism.
The three make up the Abrahamic faith recognised as a religious alliance, in cultures outside of itself.