Why follow God and what makes it moral?

Stand up to what ?

All I did was point out some facts about the Bible and the history of Christianity.

You do not like these facts and can not refute them so you chose to attack the and demonize the messenger.

If you were really interested in the truth you would engage in civil debate, but you are not interested in hearing anything that challenges your beliefs in the slightest way.

If your beliefs can not withstand even the slightest challenge, they are not built on a strong foundation.

 

More of the Christian love you are so famous for.

 

And you with the Christians that ignore their faith.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Thought I'd leave you with your favorite scriptural punchline.

 

And that is the excuse for you isn't it?

THose things are nothing to you but an excuse to be as mean and nasty as you want, because whenever anyone says, "Whoa, slow down slick!" Well, now they are not Christian.

Enjoy the anger centered life of constant lashing out and sanctimony. It effects no ones faith but yours. Your new co-religionists will continue to affirm your behavior .... so keep it up.

 

A reminder BB, the Bible is very clear about those who constantly stir up trouble, it says to caste them out - wisdom from the OT is it not?

 

Ok. Have a great day, Lone Ranger.

 

Have they not cast you out yet?

 

More lashing out.

Another Biblical standard that applies to others and not yourself I see?

That's all you do is attempt to knock others down. Enjoy your new company, the atheists will love you. All you have to do is attack Christians, however irrationally and uncontrollably.

At some point, anger will subside (in most people anyway) and then you will have years of abuse, neglect, mean spiritedness, anger attacks, vitriol, scorn, and pain. And when it all comes to roost, when the anger subsides, you will have a guilty conscience too boot.

God will still forgive, but the way back is humbleness and repentence. Yet another part of the Bible you selectively ignore.

 

Seems everyone ignores the parts that make them uncomfortable.
Have a great day.

 

No, some of us just view them differently BB.

Again, a pacifist can look at those passages you quote all the time and come away thinking that all violence is wrong, and indeed, they provide an excellent example of Christ on this earth. I deeply respect such people, who share the views honestly and with tolerance.

There are also those who view the protection of the innocent, the defense of the weak, and the removal of injustice as a paramount form of love. Violence and strong language are best avoided, but, sometimes, if we value things like freedom, like our faith, liek unalienable, rights, then we must be mindful that there are people out there who would strip us of these rights. Enslave and abuse the innocent. And so, a few of use, and at great personal sacrifice, take on that burden. And yes, those who meet us speak just as you do, attempt to deny us our faith when we arrive and bring consequence with us.

How did Jesus speak to the Centurion who needed help for his servant? Did he chastize him and tell him that he lived a life of scum and villany? Did he tell them to immeditey stop being Soliders? What does the Bible say about governance and the need to support legitimate authority?

Again, there are those that follow the model of pacificism and gentleness, and those who are true to it are people I deeply respect. That is not my calling, and having done what I have done in the places where I have had to do them? I will tell you that Christ's principles, indeed good men and women who will see them enacted in environment bereft of them, are necessary and critical.

Even on a personal level, we need people who will hold us accountable. Quite frankly though, we all know when someone is acting the brother, and when someone is just lashing out.

Again, I caution you about the judgement you hand out, because all you are really saying is agree with my intrepretation because I say so!

 

Not at all. I have asked you why you ignore the Fruits in your communication on here. You never answer. What interpretation is necessary in understanding the Fruits of the Spirit? You are being held accountable to them, and you hate me for it. I am "lashing out", and all your other defensive rhetoric.
Rights are not part of scripture. Righteousness is. Rights are of the temporal world. Righteousness is of the Kingdom of God. Pursuing one will not necessarily lead you to pursuing the other.
You will not find me, anywhere, "cautioning" anyone. There is an unbelievable arrogance to that. I will share my thoughts and opinions, and proofs where they are relevant. But I won't caution you. I have no authority over you to do so, nor do you have that authority over any other.
Your "caution" is not a credible threat of anything. It is hubris. (Just in case you don't know that word, it's not a drug reference.)

 

I have answered, repeatedly.

I simply disagree with your interpretation. It is the acknowledgement of the reality that there are people out there that are beyond the gift of the spirit. It is the acknowledgement that there are abusive and violent people that are out there.

Satan has his workers down here to, and they actively work to subvert those gifts by one means or another. Sometime, you must be willing to do what is necessary. It is a struggle? Yep. Do I ALWAYS get it right? Nope.

Does that mean I shoudl walk away from someone beating the crap out of an innocent person when I have the strength and ability to stop it? When I see a man screaming at his cleary scared girlfriend? I should be more afraid that he will similiarly scream at me and just walk away? IMO, the person on the end of the abuse is the one in need of those spiritual gifts, not the abuser, who, in the throws of anger and abuse, is beyond the power of those gifts, unable to hear the warnings of the Holy Spirit.

When the anger and abuse have subsided? When repentence and the Holy Spirit can work their way in again? Then yes, even the abuser will share in the gifts of the spirit, in fellowship and praise.

So, no brother, I cannot just walk on by. And if God, not you, chooses to hold me to task for it, I will accept HIS judgement, and I will repent, and try (I am human) to sin no more.

 

Not at all. I have asked you why you ignore the Fruits in your communication on here. You never answer. What interpretation is necessary in understanding the Fruits of the Spirit? You are being held accountable to them, and you hate me for it. I am "lashing out", and all your other defensive rhetoric, but you are guiding, correcting and holding others accountable. You display a silly double standard.
Rights are not part of scripture. Righteousness is. Rights are of the temporal world. Righteousness is of the Kingdom of God. Pursuing one will not necessarily lead you to pursuing the other.
You will not find me, anywhere, "cautioning" anyone. There is an unbelievable arrogance to that. I will share my thoughts and opinions, and proofs where they are relevant. But I won't caution you. I have no authority over you to do so, nor do you have that authority over any other.
Your "caution" is not a credible threat of anything. It is hubris. (Just in case you don't know that word, it's not a drug reference.)
By the way, Romans 13 doesn't say we should submit to legitimate authority, but that authority is legitimate because God put leaders in their positions, and thus we should submit to it. Nowhere does it suggest that you get to decide who is legitimate and who isn't, and then decide to submit.
I think this passage was Paul trying to send a message to Rome that the new church that was growing in their midst was no threat to the governing authority and that they meant no harm. I also think it is exceptionally bad theology.

 

I am interested to hear your "interpretation" of the Fruits. Are they not the hallmarks of a believer with the Holy Spirit indwelling?

 

You are right, you are not cautioning, you are not asking people to search and find the true way, you are telling.

And that my friend is exceptionally bad theology.

"17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-1

15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan (or an atheist)or a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-1

Interestingly enough:

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. (Romans 13:1)

What exactly is YOUR authority?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom. 13&version=NIV

Verse 5 seems appropriate as well.

"Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience" (Romans 13:1-5)

Where does it say to use the gifts of the spirit to lash out if you are punished or chastized? I simply do not see it.

 

A lack of accountability is not the result of the gifts of the spirit. We fundamentally disagree.

This is a debate forum - not the accept BB's interpretation because he says so forum.

 

So debate. Don't run. What's your interpretation? What do the Fruits mean to you? How do they influence how you live?
I'm not demanding you submit to my interpretation. I'm asking for yours. What do you fear?

 

Nor do you see the opportunity to judge the leaders by determining if they are "legitimate" or not. That was your personal addition to scripture.
By the way, the term "pagan" is not a synonym for "atheist". Did you know that?
So why DO you use the gifts of the Spirit to lash out when chastised? Am I missing your point?

 

#1 - Yeah, you do. Illegimate leaders, those without authority from God, have already been judged have they not? where does authority come from - its not my interrepetation - its in the Bible and quoted for you.

#2 - Do you really think that people have no idea what a Pagan is? I added like an atheist, because in a spiritual sense, particulary today, they are the 'Pagans'.

#3 - It is YOU, not me or anyone else, who is lashing out with 'spiritual gifts' attacks - self declared.

Now, why don't YOU answer a question that I have asked you five times.

why do you think people who sign up for a loft and difficult standard deserve your scrorn, contempt, insightment, and abuse, but those who do not sign up for this 'standard' desreve to be ignored even as they abuse those who do follow the standard?

In short, spiritual gifts are not supposed to be a lack of accountability. They do not absolve you from your sins, nor do they offer excuse to those who happen on by and see you screaming at people for being 'enemies in the pew'?

I have told you repeatedly why I did noty walk on by and indeed went toe to toe with you. You? Well, the standards do not apply to YOU, nor the other atheists on the forum.

You choose which side of teh spiritual gifts you want to fall on. Either YOU follow them or YOU don't. But you clearly do not, and you have no basis to judge someone who points out that you are abusing people at the drop of a hat ... for no particular reason.

 

I don't think people who are pursuing a difficult standard are worthy of ridicule. It is those that don't pursue it and try to defend why they don't when claiming the faith that demands it that are deserving of ridicule. I admire those that truly try to rise to those awesome demands.
We have both chosen which side of the spiritual gifts to walk on, and we have both rejected them. Neither of us follow them. Only one of us is claiming he is doing the right thing by rejecting them, and that isn't me.

 

Yeah... in the society of today that form of love is called 'tough love'...so again, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

 

LOL.
Amen, brother.
Forgive 70 times 7 times.
Has it been 490 already?
LOL!

 

And who was it that have admitted to showing that he was a coward in the face of the enemy? Turn your back on the enemy, exposing the only part of the body that is not protected by spiritual armor. It is no wonder that you got whipped out of your assigned post.

 

Another Christian willing to kick the Ten Commandments to the curb and bear false witness.
Why do you guys hate God? Hate scripture? Why is it such a joke to you?

 

Forgiveness requires humbleness and repentence. An acknowledgement of error. You sins are wipped clean by God, not by man. The sacrament, not man.

Being Christian does not mean we abandon accountability, quite the opposite. We fundamentally diagree.

That is perhaps why one of us is a member of church, warm, participatory, centering, and loving.

I am sorry that you deny yourself this; the reality of the gift of the spirit.

The way back is NOT by lashing out.