Hollande is possibly going to wake up to different problems than he was expecting tomorrow with the result of the Greek election. They are not happy with the austerity measures and the two centre parties, left and right have taken a big knocking as the radical parties get the vote. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ces-political-economic-future/article2424218/ a far right party which wants to set bombs on the border to stop illegal immigrants and expel those already there is also expected to get at least 5% so a place in parliament. Even New Democracy has started talking about renegotiating the bailout.
There’s a real risk of a return to radicalism in Europe. Let’s face it if you give the sheep a choice between taking the medicine and bread and circuses then which do you think they’ll choose?
Well to be frank I would not fancy a 30% reduction on my income either which I understand is the norm. It is deeply concerning. Golden Dawn, the far right party copied the Muslim Brotherhood and delivered parcels of food and clothes to the poor to get their votes. Here is the Guardian live results. Golden Dawn looks like it is going to get around 7% of the vote and have 21 seats! http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...06/greece-elections-results-map?newsfeed=true whatever it looks very likely the Greek bailout is hitting a new low.
To what radicalism? The ruin that are bringing us the conservative and false socialdemocrat parties cannot be anymore radical. And for good luck in Greece SYRIZA that is a socialdemocrat party, a real socialdemocrat, and however his name is Coalition of the Radical Left, is for nothing radical, and however radicalism does not mean bad. Well to the point, SYRIZA is possible that in the next Greek elections will win, and that can be a light for Greece, that is ruined thanks to the socioliberals(PASOK) and the conservative party.
It looks like Greece is probably going to form a Government, not including Syriza, which will keep it in the zone for the time being. However, a new poll shows that Syriza would be the largest party if a new election was called now. It has risen in the Polls to 27.7% while, thankfully, New Dawn has gone down to 5.7% Eurozone crisis live: Syriza makes gains in new polling amid calls for unity government | Business | guardian.co.uk
One survey showed that 38 percent of Greeks, the highest percentage in the EU, were troubled by the presence of people of other nationalities living in their country, particularly ethnic Albanians. (2000 Eurobarometer) There is a widely held perception that the muslim Albanians bring crime to Greece, and this is not without statistical basis. 24 percent of Greeks said they were bothered by the presence of people of another race. There are not uncommonly stickers on streets saying 'Out with the Foreigners'. The Greeks hold some historical resentment against the USA. During the Greek civil war at the end of the secons world war, America supported right-wing resistance fighters to help keep communist resistance groups from gaining control of the country. The military dictatorship, which overthrew the democratic Greek government and ruled Greece from 1967 until democracy was fully restored in 1974, was backed by the United States, although it did not instigate the coup. Greeks were generally sympathetic to the Serbs in the Kosovo war, and NATO's bombing (mostly led by Americans) in 1999 led to additional resentment against the USA. Demonstrations often take place in front of the American embassy in Greece, and these protesters often carry on their demonstrations to the Israeli embassy nearby. These demonstrators complain about the influential Jewish lobby in America. The protesters come from both the political left and far-right. 'Poilitical correctness' does not exist as a phenomena in Greece in the same way it does in the West. Statements that would commonly be considered 'racist' or 'anti-semetic' in the West can be made without damage to personal reputation or political career. One of the main newspapers, Stochos even had the title "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on its front page. Unlike in many other countries in the EU, the socialists in Greece generally do not subscribe to the notion that different nationalities of people are all the same, or that ethnic resentment is bad. The real reason Chrysi Avghi is surprising as a political party is not their anti-foreigner and racialist sentiments, but rather why they even feel it necessary to exist when so many of the other political parties in Greece hold sentiments not unlike this. In other words, the "Golden Dawn" is not really that shocking in Greece, although it might be to most of the people that live in other Western European countries. Multiculturalism and 'tolerance' are luxuries only the more prosperous nations can afford. There is not enough opportunity to go around for everyone in the poorer Eastern european nations.
If a conservative party is weakened substantially, there is a real possibility that the far right could rear its ugly head as voters cast a protest vote and Greece fell into the trap. Some of those voted for the ultra-nationalist Golden Dawn now regret it and the majority of those who voted for Golden Dawn were men aged 25-34, unemployed and without higher education and it was more of a reflex reaction, a passive choice and it wasn't a conscious decision, according to pollsters. The lack of firm leadership of the economically-troubled country contributed to the rise of fringe parties on both sides and disenfranchised voters showed how angry they are at their country's desperate economic plight by casting a protest vote.
Who puts these stickers up, Golden Dawn perhaps? I am aware of historic hatred to the States from spending several months there in the 70's. An American friend of mine got chased by a Greek with s scythe for saying she was Americana - saved by other Greeks. They certainly hated the US then, but I am not sure what that has to do with the present crises. what is the relevance of this to the current situation? and yet Syriza said it would try to set up a government with members from all the other Parties except 'Golden Dawn'. This is a Europe wide tradition of forming a "cordon sanitaire" around such extremist far right groups and Syriza can be seem to have been following in that tradition. really but statements against Golden Dawn by journalists result in Death Threats. It is shocking to Greece. Nazism does not have a friendly home in the consciousness of Greeks. The situation which Greece has been put into is without question one which could allow for people to exploit such things but hopefully they will come up with a better answer. As we have seen a much stronger move to the far left coalition. Here's something I noticed about Greek men in the 70's. They would get explosively angry, frequently about politics and jump up and shout 'I kill him, I kill him' but they always waited to start really reaching out with the punches until people were holding them back on either side. I do not think Authoritarian hatred would sit well with them. Of course it is always dangerous to have a wide proportion of young men without focus and something to turn their attention to and people are very angry. Thankfully there are plenty of other political ways for them to align to. It seems the balance is in whether they really want to stay in the Euro or not. Personally I would say get out of the Euro, stay in the EU, default and leave the rest to deal with the house of falling cards. You cannot expect any nation to put up with what the Greeks are now. Three in four shops shut. A family orientated society giving up their babies because they have no way to look after them. People starving and no hope of any cure. The whole of Europe needs to sit up and pay attention.
Greece receives immigrants equal with 1% of our population every year for more than 10 years , 90% of the illegals enter Europe through Greece and because of Lisbon 2 treaty there is nowhere to go , we simply can not cope with their numbers . The nazis increase their voting pool by activism they are out in the streets helping people , of course they are not the only ones since anarchists are on it as well but GD participates in the elections . Nazis also got votes from ND ( liberals going back where they belong ). Greeks deeply hate USA , this is true but it does not extent to personal level and it is not in our culture to go after people with scythes ...i doubt there are any scythes around too . There is no historical rivalry between Jews and Greeks , if you exclude the nazis very few are considering "zionism" existence true but Greeks are very pro-Palestinian , i had Arafat's photo in my room as a teenager .... I don't know if you have read the complete program of SYRIZA , they are a socialist party and a very true one . Problem is that Greeks have been showered with propaganda for the last 10 years so it is very hard to say "either we remain in EU and pay or stop paying and get out" and expect to winning any vote . If you ask a random guy searching in the trash can for food "do you think that we should exit Eurozone?" 9/10 times the reply is " NO this will be a financial disaster". SYRIZA played it very well while KKE just repeated what they say since 1981 ( not that they care earning more votes ) . The biggest problem right now is that people don't see the future getting any better , we had 4 new suicides after the elections and the week is not over , soon things will go to open revolt because people will have nothing to lose .
I never said it was. It was one isolated incident. However I would suggest you do not suggest I was lying because I was not. Even with him I would agree it was more a show. He knew the others would come and nothing would come of it. My friend though was a bit scared.
No, she just met a fed up grumpy farm worker. I was not in any way trying to suggest Greeks in the 70's were xenophobic. However whenever we met someone new they always asked where we came from. For me, it would be a friendly face and 'Ah, Scotia, good!' but there was always hostility to anyone who said they were American. Sorry but that is just how it was. That did not mean that they would not then bring the ouzo and chat but it was perfectly clear they did not immediately like 'Americans' as they did not like America though they usually were perfectly capable of getting to know individual Americans and liking them. That is how it was. Nowadays I am sure people would be much more sophisticated and please note I am not saying they were horrible to individual Americans, just that there was hostility towards hearing someone was American. I will take more care in the future and not mention my friends incident with the scythe for fear of giving the wrong impression. I liked the Greeks I met and found them very hospitable people to both myself and Americans who were with me. Let's leave this now Yes, we had a documentary on the illegals trying to travel through Greece. Looked like London in rush hour. I completely accept that this is an enormous problem for you and I would say one which ought to be being met by the EU collectively. I don't know the answer to that but it is certainly something which Greece cannot be expect to deal with on her own. The EU and possibly even the UN maybe need to collectively get involved in sorting this out. Most of what you said goes with what I have gathered about Greece. I have tried to find out what would happen if Greece went into default but mostly all I get is people speaking about how it would effect other countries. It is difficult for me to think anything would be much worse than how Greece is now and where she is heading - which looks even worse. Iceland went into default and seems to be doing quite well but was not part of the Euro. The problem seems to be that for some time no one would loan to you but if you became a credible place to loan to, then of course they are going to. I have also seen the suggestion of leaving the zone but staying in the EU and that seems like the best option at the moment – leaving you space to decide what is best including as things develop – but I am no economist. The economical difficulties at the moment effect everyone but not everyone is wanting the same results. Regulation maybe what most ordinary people want but not for those making big money quick. We seem to have got into a situation where our politicians are not serving us but rather serving financial interests. Hence a poor situation for democracy. I have been reading this paper for the past few days. It makes suggestions on things which need to be done to regulate banking which is the main problem and along with that is the need for proper democracy. While political leaders are being funded by the rulers of finance all of us face the possibility of a future which Greece is facing now. We need to gain knowledge and be able to confront and the EU most certainly needs in the future if it is to survive to become much more democratic. According to this paper at the moment politicians cannot solve the problem. Here's the paper. If you have a few hours give it a read. http://www.cresc.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Deep Stall - CRESC WP110.pdf
People were not xenophobic back in the 70's , they are now . I don't think this can be shorted out we are talking about tens of thousands of people every year , very desperate that loot their way into a country in despair. Detention camps are a disgrace to the human kind , people are left to die of strange diseases and we don't have the money to do better . Best trolling solution is to immediately give them citizenship and passports so they can pass to western Europe as regular EU citizens Nobody knows what will follow since it depends on many variables like for example who will be in power , if it is a moderate we can look in an Argentina type of bankruptcy if it is a radical our goal is to write off all the debt , nationalise everything including banks and so on . Our national bank is owned by the Rothschilds and so are the gold mines , regulation or not isn't an issue . No it can not be any worst , the elders are telling me this is exactly how situation was after the civil war (1945) . Eurozone means one thing : you can only borrow from the loan sharks and it doesn't matter if you are cooking the books like the Greeks or run a budget surplus like the Spanish sooner or later you will get robbed . We don't need to get more loans , there are lots of offers to lease ports to the Chinese or receive oil for exchange of parking for the Russian fleet or even more simple tax the church ( the church owns half the country ) , priests are already stating that we should keep following the bail out deal Thank you i will read it in the weekend
For what I've read, there is no possibility to form government. Good news. Because SYRIZA in the next elections will be the force more voted. Also the Nazis will lose votes in this secound round. It is time for Greece for a real change in policies, and let's see what's going on, then.
If Syriza really takes power and forms goverment.... It's going to be interresting! Will they really default as promised? I guess they have to, or all their talk will be BS. But then what? If they default, no one will loan them any money for a long time, maybe a generation. What are Syriza going to do then? Cut the budget down to size? They can't do that, they are a lefty party. Print up more Euros? They will get kicked out of the Euro. Make their own currency, the drachma? And then print that like crazy? That won't work either. No one outside Greece will accept those phoney money. Even the greeks themselves will keep their savings and pensions in Euros or maybe dollars. Maybe letting Syriza get to power is the worst thing you could do to them! There is only one way out of this for Greece and that is for someone to drop a pair and cut the budgets. Stop reading the polls, ignore the protesters and do what is best for the country. The budgets will be cut in one of two ways: By political means or the hard way when the treasurery is empty.
I don't know what will happen if they choose to go by the drachma but I know that most country's would find this caused uproar 'If Britain were Greece' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274 the thing I don't understand is how they are ever going to pay any debt back when I hear 3 in 4 shops are already closed. Without investment in jobs in some way, where is the way out for Greece..or anyone? Also I think they would stand a better chance of getting money back if they weren't charged such high interest. see proper size here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13798000 I do know that higher interest is always charged to those who might default but it seems to me that higher interest also causes default. Greece gets a loan and 3/4 immediately has to be given away in paying back another loan??? Basically this seems to be sending Greece back to the stone age and with no arrow pointing to a way out or end in sight. That I think is what makes people feel hopeless. Very easy to say, sitting in your safe job. There are people who worked all their life and did pay taxes and now have had their pensions cut so they can hardly eat and yes, of course you are right, those with money will have moved it out. Another problem with today's lifestyle. You need also to remember that it is usually in the interests of everyone that one group of people are not allowed to fail. This always leads to trouble. So, if even an end was shown. If even a way out was there. If even something was being put in that they could work for maybe it would be possible...but just getting poorer, no jobs today or tomorrow, how do you expect people to take this lying down? I think Syriza has said it wants to renegotiate the loan rather than necessarily defaulting. Maybe a way can be found to get people working again and a way can be found so that the children are still educated so that they will be able to provide for Greece in the future, and a way will be found so that those who worked all their lives can have enough money to eat and keep warm at the end. Sure make them pay but maybe at the moment without interest and how do you ever get any growth without investment. It is a genuine question. How are they supposed to get out of austerity or when you say they should 'drop a pair' are you meaning, they should accept being paupers for the next fifty or a hundred years? Of course people fear if Greece does this so may Portugal and Spain and even Ireland then the cards start falling for us all because of the interconnections of our loans. We're all just turning into the USofA. Food kitchens and the like. That seems to be the political move but the way out? No one seems to know it and that is what imo we should all be looking for. Then maybe Greece could bare it for the time being.
Could a European tell me (an American) how Greece could be expelled from the Eurozone if She wouldn't agree to leave? Who makes the decision? Is it the European parliment? If so can members from countries not in the Eurozone (such as the UK) vote on the question? Could members from Greece vote? Is it a board of directors of a central bank? If so who is on it? How many votes would be required? Could another nation (Germany for example) sue in some European Union court to get an order expelling Greece? If so in what court and by what procedure? A comment from a Greek in another story stated the other 16 members of the Eurozone could expell Greece. This does seem like the most logical way it could be done. The comment implied that a unanimous decision would be required, is that right? If a unanimous vote isn't required what vote is required? I can think of 5 countries which might vote no: France (because of the new President), Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland (because they fear they could be the next to be expelled and don't want to set the precident). Are there any other nations that might vote no? Two nations (Greece and Portugal for example) could agree that each would oppose the other's expulsion. This would prevent a unanimous vote. Does any rule exist against such an agreement? Would such an agreement be likely? A majority or 2/3 vote of the other countries could quite likely be obtained but unanimous would be very hard. Does Greece have any appeal right if She doesn't agree with the decision? If so to what court or body?
As I understand it nobody is going to throw Greece out of the Euro or the EU. What might happen is that the 'bail out' will be stopped if Greece cannot reach an agreement and is not prepared to continue on the 'austerity' course. That would leave Greece with no alternative but herself to leave the Euro...though there are some people who suggest it may not. There also seems to be some disagreement as to whether if she leaves the Euro she also leaves the EU but likely unless she chose to leave she will stay in. It's very much untreaded water but it seems that for leaving the Euro, no one will tell her to leave but circumstances may make it the only possibility.
If we leave Eurozone we will also have to leave the EU yet there are no mechanisms to expel anyone from the union , Germany tried to remove decision making from countries outside the "financial order pact" but they failed miserably . I don't understand how defaulting will send the country "back to stone age" , look the exchange rate of Bulgarian Leva ... Greece has gold mines , nationalising them + the banks and tie currency to gold can be an option . There is no future for us in Eurozone , going back to drachma could cause a couple of years of misery but we are already there for the last three and as we say here the wet doesn't fear the rain . From what i read in international press looks like the establishment is realising that we are no longer lazy , tax evading bastards , it is maybe me but i think they fear a domino effect , fun times !
I still don't understand what would occur if Greece refused to voluntarily leave the Eurozone but also wouldn't do what the other nation's in the Eurozone wanted Her to do. A mild example would be not implementing austerity measures or less than the other countries wanted, a severe example would be printing a trillion Euros when the other countries didn't want them to do that. At what point would Greece's action justify an involuntary expulsion from the Eurozone? According to the post above by Great Dane if they did the severe example "They would get kicked out of the Euro." My quesion is how and by who? If no provision exists to expell a nation from the Eurozone could one be established? How and by who? I'm pretty sure expulsion from the Eurozone wouldn't expell a nation from the European Union as several nations including the UK belong to the EU but not to the Eurozone. I would suspect that expulsion from the EU would probably automatically expell a nation from the Eurozone. Does any procedure exists for the EU to expell a member? If so what is required?
It's all fascinating to watch. Spain and Italy are in serious trouble, too. Politicians! hah! They're all liars. Re elect NO ONE.
em I was referring to the 'austerity' package That is what people seem to say. For a while turmoil but then gradual recovery. You need to be prepared for the initial turmoil.
If a left wing party can be "far right" what makes it far right? It's not as if the right has a monopoly on violence and being anti-immigrant. As for Greece, according to opinion polls its people want to stay in the euro but they vote for anti-austerity measure parties. I'm not sure how they think the two positions can possibly be reconciled.
Give everyone a break and keep up with the news. They are known as being neo nazis. Even Stormfront described them as 'the real thing'. well I am sure that is what they each will be considering before June 17th.
