Vote: is prostitution acceptable or unacceptable?

Oh, I am sure there is no coersion going on, and you tube videos are of course better than actual documentation of the problem.

"Thailand is a source, transit, and destination country for human trafficking. It is a destination-side hub of exploitation in the Greater Mekong Sub-region, for both sex and labor exploitation.



Source

Migrants, ethnic minorities, and stateless people in Thailand are at a greater risk of being trafficked than Thai nationals, and experience withholding of travel documents, migrant registration cards, and work permits by employers. Thai men who migrate for low-skilled contract work and agricultural labor are subjected to conditions of forced labor and debt bondage as well."

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand/

Tell me, why are so many men pretending that this is not a problem? Why are we attempting to put the white wash over the problem? Its not like this information is hard to find and thus we are forced to turn to you tube for .... what is no doubt accurate stastical data on teh subject?

 

#1 - make a case that prostitution is morally correct. Use generally accepted moral terms like respect, human dignity, selflessness, service, etc. and see where what you come up with.

#2 - You continue to beat the drum of regulation, and then ignore the fact that there is a massive problem.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/893

"The UN crime-fighting office announced that 2.4 million people across the globe are victims of human trafficking at any one time, and 80 percent of them are being exploited as sexual slaves."

"According to Fedotov's Vienna-based office, only one out of 100 victims of trafficking is ever rescued.

Fedotov called for coordinated local, regional and international responses that balance "progressive and proactive law enforcement" with actions that combat "the market forces driving human trafficking in many destination countries."

And here is what your regulation did:

"Since 1990 in the Netherlands, the number of trafficked women from Central and Eastern European Countries has tripled. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

"In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)"

And of course, its such a glorious, high paying job:

"Prostituted women in shop windows in the Netherlands pay rent for the windows, about 150 florins (US$ 90) a day. The woman waits for male buyers in a room with a window that looks onto the street. The room contains the bed where she has sex and also lives and sleeps. In some establishments two women share a kitchen, a room for eating, a bathroom and toilet. At some sites the buildings comply with general sanitary and administrative rules for the municipality, men patrolling the streets assure security, rents are fixed, and neither minors nor victims of trafficking are officially allowed to work. In others, up to four women may use the same window room, share a single toilet, an improvised shower and no kitchen. In some cases, the women receive one towel and two sheets for use throughout the week. On the average, the women work between 12 and 17 hours a day, receiving from 10 to 24 clients, at a usual charge of 50 florins for 15 minutes sessions. (Licia Brussa, "Transnational AIDS/STD Prevention Among Migrant Prostitutes in Europe," TAMPEP, 1996)"

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm

"The sex industry in the Netherlands is estimated to make most $1 billion each year. 15 It is a major Western European destination country for trafficked women with 2,000 brothels and numerous escort services, using an estimated 30,000 women. 16 Moreover, 68-80% of women in its sex industry are from other countries, a factor highly indicative of sex trafficking."

http://www.iast.net/thefacts.htm

Yep we certainly need more of that - we need the government to become complicit in our rationalization of exploitation. Good JOB Johns!

 

This is equating something like child labor or sweat shops to all employment as is Iolo's opinion. Prostitution as the saying goes is the oldest profession, and has not always carried a stigma or contempt for the women offering such services. Despite what some people's personal morals might blind them with, for some women it is choice made freely in terms of employment. Making the selling of sex legal but the purchasing of it illegal has reduced prostitution in Sweden, but has not necessarily reduced human trafficking ..

"The country continued to be a transit point, and to a lesser extent a destination, for trafficked women and children. Many law enforcement officials and analysts estimated the number of trafficked women at approximately 500 per year. Victims came primarily from the Baltic region, Eastern Europe, or Russia. Those transiting the country came primarily from the Baltic region, heading towards suspected destination countries of Denmark, Germany, Norway, Spain, and the United Kingdom. There were occasional cases of trafficked women from South America and Thailand. Police reported approximately 10 percent of child trafficking involved victims ages 16 and 17. Most of these children were trafficked from the Baltic states and countries of the former Soviet Union. None of the cases involved young boys. Since November 2004 approximately 120 Chinese children arrived without papers in Stockholm and requested asylum. Police suspected the children were being trafficked to European countries for cheap labor or sexual exploitation. All 120 disappeared shortly after arrival.

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61677.htm

Published the same year as your article on Sweden, 2010.

So if you want to reduce prostitution because you feel it is morally wrong and victimizes women, Sweden seems to have found legislation that works for them. It doesn't seem to be the end all solution to eliminating exploitation and slavery which I feel are separate issues and ones I am concerned with remaining illegal.

 

I don't think anyone's morals should come into play in victimless "crimes", which applies to consensual prostitution. Fight the exploitation not the so called crime that hurts no one. Any worker can be exploited, there is forced labor for many non-sexual jobs, such as maids, mineral workers, farmers, etc. The answer is not making house-keeping, mineral working, and farming illegal.

 

So, 120 ... in an entire country. Certainly that is bad, no way around it.

Now, please go back and visit the numbers for the Netherlands alone - one city. 30,000 women of which a minimum of 68% are likely trafficked. That is THOUSANDS of women. In short, the policy that you advocate makes the problem you are 'concerned' about orders of magnitude worse.

Then there is simple economics. Do you know why so many women are trafficked? Because the demand for sexual ... rape ... exceeds the supply of women willing to voluntarily do it without coercion. Ergo, in a NORMAL market, prices would balance the supply and demand and the girls would become increasingly expensive to the point where it balanced. Or, you increase the supply of women to keep the price low and affordable - and we know how that happens don't we?

So, we know that the supply of women is not legally keeping pace with demand and certianly we should be criminalizing the supply side. However, we should also be taking actions to reduce the demand side rather than pretending that sexually maladjusted men exploiting women is ... normal. It's not supposed to be easy to be able to walk out and have sex with a human slave. Yet it is? Odd.

Do we see the problem yet, or will you continue to use the lack of perfection as and excuse to do nothing?

 

How the hell is a human slave being raped a victimless crime?

 

So as to break this down in layman's or shall I say (excuse the pun), laywoman's terms--those liberals and or democraps that make a living off of the demise of the socially dead welfare-indebted dependents of our society would certainly deserve some kind of penalty. The only thing left for you to do now is to give us the severity of the penalties being dished out to these societal criminals.

 

The age of the industry is irrelevant. And actually yes, the sexism has always been there. If it were not always there, then there would have been some period in recorded history wherein roughly half of all prostitutes were male, but there was no such period was there? No, the business has always, in the main, featured certain specific gender roles. One sex does the buying (not to mention most of the profiting) and the other provides the services. That is, has always been, and will always be the rule. There is no getting around that reality. The business is indisputably sexist.

As to those women who actually do pursue prostitution as something they really WANT to do, not just as a last resort or as a result of poor self-image, that would be a small minority of the total, whom policy should not revolve around. Policy should tend to focus on benefiting the majority. And frankly, on a deeper level, stigmatizing the buying of sex benefits women generally, including those far removed from the industry. It serves not only to minimize direct exploitation of workers, but also to alter what men's expectations of women as a whole are in a more egalitarian way. It challenges male entitlement mentality concerning sex.

 

There were 120 Chinese children their total averages 500/ year. Comparing different countries is not apples to apples when they have different legislation in place, economies, social attitudes and so forth. Reading through the articles I posted in my previous response to you showed this as well. Seeing what the legislation affects were within that country can show you how effective the legislation is for that country. Sweden did not see a significant decrease in their human trafficking, they saw significant decreases in the demand for prostitution.

Like Sweden, Norway also criminalized purchase but legalized the selling of sex

"Prostitution in Norway is only illegal in that paying for sex is a crime (the client commits the crime by purchasing sex, but not the person who sells sex). The Norwegian law prohibiting the buying of sexual services (sexkjøpsloven) came into effect on January 1, 2009, following the passing of new legislation by the Norwegian parliament (Storting) in November 2008. [1]

Effect of sex purchase ban

Despite an initial drop in the visibility of street sex work, [13] recent reports suggest it has returned to its previous levels. [14] This created great difficulties for Norwegian street workers. [13]

Norwegians were interested in a report released in July 2010 in Sweden, since it suggested a large increase in sex work in neighbouring Nordic countries once the Swedish law came into effect. [15]

Following revelations that selling sex was as prevalent as ever, and that reporters posing as clients were easily able to negotiate transactions, Conservative MP André Oktay Dahl, deputy chairman of the Justice Committee called for a repeal of the law. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Norway

So we also see here that legislation in one country can also effect others. Meaning a crack down and implementing effective legislation may just be moving the problem form one country to the next. This is why I feel human trafficking, which again includes forced labor for a plethora of employments, is a separate issue. I will ask again should we make house-keeping illegal because that vocation solstices a black market for forced labor?

 

Very much agree. Full human beings make love with a partner they love, because they want to express that feeling. To sell a pretence of that is very, very sick, and only a sick society could find it normal. Meanwhile, sure, do all you can to protect the exploited, but let's never forget the goal, which is to wipe out this disgusting business for good.

 

Really? By your own words, even though prostitution is illegal in the US, there are boards where thre girls are rated and information about them traded. So you are telling me that most prostitution in the US happens on street corners because ... ???

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-related-ads/2012/07/20/gJQAzPRfxW_story.html

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/popular-we...fficking-child-exploitation/story?id=11367581

Do you not listen to the news?

And then there is the reality that study after study indicates that criminalizing prostitution coupled with strong social outreach services for the VICTIMS - and they are almost always victims of crime - is the way forward. Instead you continue to advocate the Netherlands, apparently delberately blind to the very thing you preport to being against.

Its wrong brother, no matter how you skin it, its devaluing and abusive. Like it or not, you will pay a price for your daliances - just as Elliot Spitzer did, and fully deserved.

 

Hmmm ... it appears that, shocking though it might be, Iolo and myself are in full agreement Who says there are no miracles?

 

There are many women who have no problem with selling their bodies for sex. You can not make the general claim that "sex workers do not have a choice" because it is simply not true in all cases. Many sex workers have chosen the profession and more would likely do so were it not for it being illegal.

What needs to be done is more to protect sex workers. Keeping it illegal just marginalizes the trade which does less to protect sex workers.

Legalization would allow better enforcement of laws against sex traffic and child prostitution.

Some girl deciding to exchange sex for money does not cause others to engage in child and women traffic. Arguments to the contrary are utilitarian nonsense which degrades individual rights an freedoms.

Keeping sex for money transactions illegal only serves to help the pimps and gangs and furthers the degradation these women.

At the end of the day .. who am I to say that two consenting adults can not exchange sex for money. And it is that simple.

Connecting this transaction to child abuse and so forth is logically flawed.

 

Why is it a suprise to find that there are others who share your desire to force your beliefs on others.

What would be a miracle is if folks stopped trying to control others.

 

Wouldn't it be a far greater miracle if, insetad of whining about how others are 'controlling' you, because you want to rape sexual slaves, wouldn't it be better to seek to control yourself and your penis rather than make it someone else's responsibility? Nah, your lack of self control is actually ... not your fault.

 

Hilarious.. the degree of embellishment, logical fallacy and demonization control freaks engage in to justify forcing their personal beliefs on others.

Sexual slavery and rape are illegal and should be. This thread and discussion is about prostitution (discounting pimping) not about sexual slavery.

I know it makes you feel better if you can demonize all those who exchange money for sex as "engaged in child prostitution and sex slavery" but do feel free to join in the convo if you think you can manage to stay on topic.

My willy is not hurting you nor anyone else so why are you so fixated on telling me what to do with it.

 

I realize now why I put you on ignore many months ago - and back you go.

Apparently, as always, you are incapable of a discussion and add absolutely nothing to the discussion - having failed to read anything up to this point and apparently blissfuly unaware, like all the other Johns, about the trafficking, abuse, rape, exploitation that their money goes to support. Of course, YOUR money didn't - YOU would never - its all the 'other Johns' that do it!!

And in the midst of your rationalizing, it is of course YOU that are again the victim of fallacy? Back on iggy you go.

 

Nobody is supporting slavery for christ sake!

Now.. if you could just let go of that, what do you think about a woman, voluntarily, offering sex for money? Do you still feel you have some moral obligation to get in the way of two consenting adults? And said scenario can and does happen, that no slave is involved that is. Some people want to be prostitutes believe it or not.

 

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*). As soon as you pay for it - you support it. I am sure you want to rationalize it, but the reality is that there are millions of girls trapped in sexual slavery. You are the demand side of that equation, period.

I realize there is a thin veneer to aid the rationalization that you and other Johns are attempting to hide behind, but the statistics don't lie. If you are a punter, there is a good chance you had sex with a trafficked woman - and concercion for sex is by definition rape.

Agh, but YOU don;t see it that way? I wonder if the women on the recieving end of the treatment do?

You can't control your ****? Well, too bad. Some people are not going to turn away from the consequences.

 

Denial of reality and inability to stay on topic is your specialty so it is no suprize that you have to close your eyes, ears, mouth, nose or anything else that might let the truth in when it conflicts with your opinion.

I welcome the opportunity not to have to waste time on closed minded buffoons.

 

Thank you for telling us why laws against prostitution are unconstitutional.

 

You DO realize that Pimps and johns would cease to exist if prostitution was legal right?

So is charging interest... but we employ the shiat out of that dont we?... oops my bad... its ok for Israelis to charge people who arent Israelis interest

 

You do realize that the exact opposite happens in places like Thailand and the Netherlands where prostitution is legal right? There are more pimps, more exploitation, and more trafficked women. In fact, MOST of the women in places like the Netherlands are trafficked women.

But heh, you keep rationalizing the effects. Facts will be there when you wake up.

 

Whatever.. have you ever been to the Chicken ranch... there are no pimps there... and the women are very happy... so you rationalize away... i will go to the Chicken ranch

 

Now, for all the Johns who are voting what a wonderful exploit being able to bang a human slave is, why don't you come out of the shadows and put a name to your actions? Like Benedictine perhaps? Who apparently doesn't like the reality that the demand side of prostitution is THE CAUSE of human trafficking? No market for the goods ... no need for the market right?

So come on out of the shadows and put your name to the action. Join Elliot Spitzer and Heidi Fleiss - come on out of the shadows and put a name to the action of what is so proud, virtuous, and 'victimless' crime! You are advocating policy and want to to do some anonymity? Odd?

Or, could it be that you know its wrong? You just don't enjoy having you bubble of rationalization pushed perhaps? If not? If that is wide of the mark, then come on out of the shadows and put your name on the line. Go ahead. We are waiting for more John's using trafficked women in the Netherlands to tell us its OK, because the government .... makes sure its all good? Really?