Before I start, I'd just like to point out I am not against Atheism. Nor do I, say collectively condemn Atheists regard on religion as a whole. I just want to raise this issue . [I'm 13 so do understand I'm learning] It has come to my attention that people of my generation have become a lot less tolerant about religion. As science and technology progress exponentially, people appear to become submissive to the fact "Religion and Science are not compatible". I concurr. But what truly saddens me is the cynicism and belittling that some pious people receive. I'm fundamentally Hindu, and I really don't antagonise Atheists, but some of the questions they ask just to stump religious people and not even attempt to start a fruitful conversation, irritate me. I'll be tackling a few. 1.) If religion is so great, why does it start so many wars? It's conflict. A conflict of ideas can always bring about destruction. Religion is just one of these things. Also, may I point out, just because some people claim they fight in the name of religion, many a time they have an ulterior motive, and religion is being misused as a shield on which all the blame is put on. Also, virtually every religion doesn't advocate pointless war. If the war has reason and substance, that's a different question, but if religion condemns needless violence, why would people then blame religion? Also, let me point out some people who didn't advocate religion and still ended up creating the loss of millions. Once again may I re-iterate I don't wish to guilt trip or hate on Atheists, I just wish to present my opinion. Adolf Hitler despised religion. He went on to kill 9 to 11 million people. Joseph Stalin hated and persecuted people of faith. He killed approximately 20 million people. Mao Zedong considered religion a hindrance to humanities progression. 45 Million were killed under his tenure. These statistics show us religion isn't always needed thought of as some poison which only brings conflict, false hope and malevolence. It can offer a lot more than that, trust me. Before, I continue, I'd like some perspective. I think I got into my rant mode, lol.
Welcome to the board Using the "Hitler! Stalin!" accusation against atheists is something I often see. The problem is that it is flat out wrong. I recommend you read this article which explains it. http://www.examiner.com/article/refuting-the-myth-that-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot-were-atheists-1
The most poignant argument which points out that religions creates wars isn't just to throw blame at religion. It is true that some atheists will use it like that, and it is also true that some atheists who don't mean to come across as doing that. In my opinion, the point of bringing up atrocities performed by religious people is not quite so straight forward. First, we need to recognise that this is primarily aimed at American Christians, but can be applied in similar fashion to other religions. In the USA, it is a common idea that morals come from religion, that you cannot be moral without religion. I don't know to what extent that also applies to you or other Hindus. Atheists mostly rejection this notion in favour of the idea that anyone regardless of faith can be moral or immoral (this is a bit of a simplification, but not massively so). The example of religious wars prove that religions do not demonstrably stop atrocities, which puts a big dent in the often unspoken idea that religious people are more moral. However, the atheists do not claim that atheists are in general more moral than others, so the fact that there have been atrocities performed by atheists (whether Hitler was an atheist is debated, but certainly Stalin) does not invalidate the logic. Secondly, there is also a criticism against the mental framework that it is argued religion brings. This includes the concentration of power, especially to a person who, according to atheists, have a flawed decision making process. Similarly, most atheists will state that Stalin had a concentration of power and while not religious, had a similarly broken decision making process. We don't know what the perfect decision making process includes, but most secular humanists have rejected both having a mentally ill person telling you and using liberal interpretations of books from a long time ago.
War has been in our nature for whatever reason. They dated the first war in the country I live in back to 24,000 BC. In a time where it's believed that there were about 24 people (total!) living in an area as vast as Switzerland. Yet we found weapons made out of stone and several victims which obviously did die from a conflict. Be my guest to guess what they could have possibly fought for. One thing shocks me in this story: How could you possibly find another group of people in such a vast area to even start a war? So war has nothing to do with religion. We have had wars because of religion no doubt, but there is always a reason. If it wasn't religion they would find another reason. The real question is: Can we evolve and stop fighting each other eventually?
As Swensson said the argument from atheists who do not misuse it isn't that only religion creates war but rather that the supposed superior morality claimed to reside in religion has no affect on human nature in regards to war and that it has a history of creating conflict. As you say we need to evolve past our violent tendencies and many atheists make the claim that removing extraordinary unsubstantiated claims about whom, what and why we are from the equation will improve our chances of doing just that.
I personally don't believe religion will ever completely disappear. It's too old of an tradition to just go away. And I also don't believe that atheism will change all that much. I think the necessary thing has to be done in our education system. Even if you don't grow up with a religion, you've been taught being nationalistic. The flag of your country is now so damn important, it's unreal. It's another way of worship. This time a piece of carpet with certain colors. There are even laws which protect that piece of carpet if it is painted in certain colors, can you imagine that? Think about it. These days the terms "American", "English", "French", "German", etc. practically refers to something negative. So even if atheism replaces theism, we are still taught that just because we live in one country we are superior to someone else. And this does start tons of wars...
As a 13 year old I'm not sure what your historical knowledge consists of but you must understand that this debate didn't just spring up from a hole in the ground where suddenly and for no reason people decided to hold religion to a certain standard instead of simply tolerating it. There was a time we could not have this conversation because of religious authority and just because they were forced to comply with secular ideals and became more docile over time doesn't mean we should simply forget about when they weren't. On top of that and more importantly is the fact that to this day religion is having adverse effects on many countries throughout the world for various reasons, some more pressing than others. There is a great deal to respond to here; 1.) Does the religion in question assume moral superiority over other ideals? Does it claim that indeed it is the only way to have morality? If yes than war contradicts that regardless of what their motives are but especially when we look at the actual reasons for many religious wars. 2.) The fact that religion can be used as a front to convince other religious people to go to war is just another knock on religion. 3.) Who decides if a war has reason or substance? What is needless violence and what violence is necessary? Religious texts are often vague due to the contradictory nature of its scripture. If there is no set standard to go by in regards to scripture than it can mean anything which is why number 2 is possible. 4.) The goal is to eliminate our violent tendencies and so those making the argument usually see religion as either A cause or a road block towards a different perspective. There are a lot of wonderful, peaceful religious people in the world but they possess the cognitive ability to perceive their text in such a way that eliminates the mythological barbarism that is every bit a part of their faiths origins as the peaceful parts. In other words it wasnt a fundamental belief that created their view. Which leads us to another problem, who gets to say which view of the religious text is the correct one? If we try to use the bible to decide it creates a circular argument which is interesting because it seems the bible cannot then tell us what is right or wrong in that sense meaning in the end its not very helpful. This is a debate you should just take upon yourself to read up on more because it tends to go round and round. At the very least your wording here is simply incorrect. As for the rest of this I believe I have covered most of it above if indirectly but I would tell you that there is some very good information on this subject that you are aware of. Nothing is this black and white and misses the point of the argument atheists make against religion. Not many atheists are fond of these kinds of ideologies and realize they are equal in their ability to do harm and attaching their behavior to non-belief isnt a valid argument. This is a simplistic view of the debate. The question you have to ask is, do the pros outweigh the cons and you will have to consider many other aspects of religion before you can honestly ask it.
For myself though I assume I could speak for the atheists I know I approach this debate from exactly that perspective. Education is the key so when we hear theists on this board asking us why we care about something we don't believe in they miss the point. It's about the spread of knowledge and information. In the Middle East the narrative is controlled and so it's no wonder progress is slow or non-existent. Stagnation whether physical or mental is the death of all progress. But to be honest when you think of the biggest issues in America today the ones people argue the most over which ones don't involve religion in some way? It's not the only issue to be sure but it is one of the bigger ones and when it comes to Islam and nukes it has to be the biggest one.
I have to say I dont fully agree. Religion is not purely about the supernatural, and those elements of religion which are materialist in nature are fully compatible with science. Even for the supernatural parts of religion, I would only go so far as to say that science and religion currently appear to be incompatible. I assume that what you refer to is people being belittled for no reason other than their piety. I agree that's pretty bad, but it's also pretty rare in my view. More often, it seems to me, people are belittled for being obnoxious or foolish or so on, and it just so happens that they are doing so while on the topic of religion. Sorry to flog a dead horse, but as others pointed out, this argument is sometimes made as a response to people saying we get our morality from god or religion. Right now, for instance, there's a thread on this forum where a poster is claiming that Jesus created world peace. Well, he privately despised certain religions. That's a fairly major distinction. While Hitler wasn't a Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu, neither was he an atheist. I dont think anyone is saying that, any more than anyone is saying that atheism only brings us people like Stalin and Mao.
When you say fundamentally Hindu I assume you mean you have adopted it? Converting to Hindu is not anything I would suggest, if you ever meet a born Hindu they will have to completely disregard you, new converts are at the very bottom of the class system and unclean even by the lowest established class. You have to wait to be reborn to enter a new class. You essentially shut yourself off from a whole group (ironically one you admire) who would otherwise have no problem with you. If you were born Hindu I apologize. I sympathize with your sentiment here though. Just be careful starting out finding fault in others, as you can see they will not hesitate to tell you where they stand and where you can stick your judgements. I think you meant well though, but I might be wrong. You have to speak for yourself. btw Welcome to PF!!!
Thanks for the warm welcome guys. I suppose I was a bit hasty and presumptuous in making that comment, but nonetheless, I'll hope to learn from this.
'Religion' is always 'man-made!' Man's attempt to find & worship God, on 'his' own terms... The spirit of man has always tried to find the Spirit of his Creator as it is in his DNA, to unite with Him as man has recognized his 'littleness' in most/all historical tribes/civilizations. Only the name and man's subjective beliefs are varied, where the foundation of the greater 'religions' are' all peace based.' But intolerance thru religion and man's greed using religion as an excuse (see the bloody invasions of Mex & Peru under the 'cross,' for ex.) have caused wars and pain, corrupting the religion and it's basic noble principles... My advice for you at 13 yo...'dont throw the baby out with the bath water' as far as believing in a higher power...but until it becomes 'real' to one personally often thru an epiphany as such, it is just a topic for discussion...
In China during Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward (or Five year Plan) many people died not because of religion but because of Mao's policies regarding economic and agricultural reform. Mao wanted China to become an industrial might, therefore he took peasants off their fields and put them to work in the heavy industry factories and infrastructure projects. He also disallowed peasants to grow their own food. The government also implemented many agricultural techniques that were proven unless and unscientific. The result,, millions died of famine.
[I]though i'm not an atheist, I do understand why they believe what they do. MOST religions claim love but their actions shows sometimes different. And for the most part the wars between country ISN'T spiritual , it's about power. Sadly those NOT believing in God ,Jehovah ,(Exo. 6:3), and Jesus. Believe they approve of the wars of mankind. But both Jehovah God and Jesus showed man has NO RIGHT, taking another life ,(Matt.19:18), and (Exo. 20:13 Thou shalt not kill). Many don't understand the wars Jehovah God allowed in the days of old. WASN'T about what group, country or tribe, were better than the other. It was for HIS TRUE SERVANTS. There were MANY people living in the same land of the Israelites. But they were like MANY today, living in a way unpleasing to God. Which true followers of Jesus and servants of Jehovah God shouldn't do, (Psa. 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful). Just like today, lovers of the world ,(1John 2:15,16). so leave it to demons to cause man to lose their lives, believing their hype ,(Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles, (tricks) of the devil). peace[/I]
Atheism is a very small part of our personality , so small that it does not define us . Apart from not following any religion and denying the existence of a god like creature atheists have nothing else in common , we are not a group & we do not have an agenda .
"...but, chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual"
The beauty of religion is only met or exceeded by the horrific things many do and have done in the name of their God. IMO if one if is objective one will see many times throughout the course of human history where cultures have clashed and drew blood in the name of their deity. IMO our conflict with Al Qaeda and the Taliban are caused by a clash in theological views. Do not fool yourself... I bet each of the top religions currently practiced around the world has blood on their hands... even the Buddhists... some of which are killing Muslims in Myanmar. Need I mention the Crusades? There is something about religion that drives some people to do some horrible things to those who do not share their particular faith.
I'm actually am going to use a Bible Quote to support my position: 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. When we are children we believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Goblins Under the Bed and other things that is the same as a belief in a Deity or Deities. We as a species should take this pearl of wisdom and put religion away and focus on what is real science, morality structured off of common sense and logic not mythology and focus on the advancement of our species. If we created gods and goddesses out of a primal need then our species can remove religion with the view those ideas are childish. I always like to ask this maybe a Divine Force wants us to not believe our construction as thinking beings *if created*, the natural universe clearly not supporting a Divine Force it seems not believing would at some point be expected so Atheists could be favored in the afterlife we are not thinking like children we think like adults.
