Bandera is a very much loved and respected among Kiev government

Regarding Germany and Russia American point of view was formulated 15 January 1920, commander of the us forces in Germany General, Allen. In his diary he made the following entry: “Germany is a country that is most able to reflect Bolshevism. The expansion of Germany at the expense of Russia for a long time distracting the Germans to the East and would reduce thereby the tension in their relations with Western Europe. According to the American point of view, strong and at the same time in the American financial dependence Germany was to become the main armed force of the United States in Europe (H. Allen, Mein Rheinland. Tagebuh, Berlin, 1923, s. 51, “history of the Second World war 1939-1945,” in 12 volumes, M Voenizdat, 1973, I. 1, S. 37).


“Dawes Plan”

In April 1924, the American banker Charles Dawes put forward a number of proposals for the settlement of payments reparation payments from Germany.

These proposals were tabled international conference in London in July-August, 1924, the Conference ended on August 16, 1924, the adoption of the so-called “Dawes Plan”.

The first paragraph of this plan was the decision to withdraw French troops from the territory of Germany, which was completed on 31 July 1925, this decision meant the complete defeat of France in the struggle for hegemony in Europe in 1918-1923, (M. C. Frunze, Selected works, M, Voenizdat, 1957, so 2 (notes), S. 490, 497)

But the main element of the “Dawes Plan” was to provide financial assistance to Germany from the USA and England in the form of loans for allegedly paying reparations to France.

In 1924-1929, Germany received on the “Dawes Plan” from the USA - 2.5 bln., from England - $ 1.5 billion. (Approximately 400 billion. at the rate 1999). This gave the ability of German industry to fully equip its facilities, almost wholly to upgrade production equipment and to create a basis for future restore military production.

According to the “Dawes Plan” the revival of the German industry was calculated on the implementation of its products on the markets of Eastern Europe and the USSR, which had become an agricultural appendage of the German industrial complex


You continue? Or books read themselves!

 

you're splitting hairs.

 

Not at all. If you are able to point out any similarities between Marxism and Stalinism I'm all ears. Many of those who fought against Hitler fascism were Marxists because they understood that the two ideologies were opposites.

 

European fascism headed up by Nazi Germany, along with Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain and Salazar in Portugal, was not some aberrant force that sprang from nowhere during the 1920s-1930s. The movement was a deliberate cultivation by the rulers of Anglo-American capitalism. European fascism may have been labeled "national socialism" but its root ideology was very much one opposed to overturning the fundamental capitalist order. It was an authoritarian drive to safeguard the capitalist order, which viewed genuine worker-based socialism as an enemy to be ruthlessly crushed.

This is what made European fascism so appealing to the Western capitalist ruling class in those times. In particular, Nazi Germany was viewed by the Western elite as a bulwark against possible socialist revolution inspired by the Russian revolution of 1917. Many within the ruling class such as Lord Rothermere who owned the disgusting right-wing rag, the Daily Mail, were overt anti-semites who hated any notion of working class solidarity. Rothermere was actually a personal friend of Hitler. That's why his paper was full of anti-Jew stories in much the same way that the paper targets Muslims today.

It is no coincidence that American capital investment in Nazi Germany between 1929-1940 far outpaced that in any other European country.

 

I hope you can see the idiocy of this statement.

 

Not at all.

 

Nazi Germany didn't exist until 1933

 

Ok, fair point if semantics is your thing. But the overall substantive point stands. The right wing ruling class and fascism are ideological bedfellows.

 

symantics???? are you (*)(*)(*)(*)ing kidding me?????

the difference between 1933 and 1929 is symantics????

no, its called (*)(*)(*)(*)ing facts and history.

but as a frequent defender of Putin and Stalin, I guess such things are irrelevent to you.

 

Excellent. This is the game free countries and Communist Russia played, dealing with Hitler, hoping to take advantage at the expense of each other. The rest is a better known part of history...

 

Your semantics notwithstanding, the point stands, namely that American capital investment in Germany between 1929-1940 far outpaced that in any other European country. And yes, 1929-1940 does include years that the Nazis were in power.

 

Now why am I surprised that an apologist for Bandera is also an apologist for America propping up Nazism.

 

Of course it doesn't. He accuses me of being an apologist for Stalin despite the fact that I have repeatedly condemned him. He has not once condemned Bandera.

 

Every attempt at communism have turned into some sort of stalinism, maoism, leninism, kastroism etc, without exceptions. You ARE splitting hair.

 

You are absolutely right, there is nothing funny about the tragedy. But it is funny to see russofobs because russofobs are always funny. They extol Bandera, because of one reason only: Russians do not like him. Especially it is funny look at the Jew from Kazakhstan who exalts anti-Semite Bandera. It seems these guys are not averse to eat moldy stuff, if Russians do not like it. I'd wonder to see that miracle, if I'd have not seen many other miracles in my life. But the most interesting fact in this situation is all the main victims of Banderites were ethnic Poles, Belarusians and Ukrainians, not Russians. Many years ago I was at university in the same group with a girl who is a native of western Ukraine. She is now the director of one of schools in our city. Just a few days ago I met her, we talked about the situation in Ukraine and Banderites. She said, "People think we Western Ukrainians are all Banderites, while we are the main victims of them." Her grandfather and grandmother (ethnic Ukrainians) were resettled from Poland into Western Ukraine in Ivano-Frankivsk region after WWII. At this time, still OUN UPA worked in this region. So their grandparents told her how they hid in the basement of their house, trying do not show the signs of life when so called OUN UPA fighters came into village. This is just fact of life without ideological babbling.

 

Turning into something is not the same as something else...Duh!

 

Bandera was in a Nazi concentration camp in the timeframe of those pictures, if they are authentic in the first place.... and no one is defending Bandera but Nazi he wasn't, he was a Ukrainian nationalist hating the Nazis as much as he hated Russian communists. If his cooperation with the Nazis make him a Nazi, then you must admit that Stalin was an even bigger Nazi than Bandera, so was Chamberlain.

 

My position on Bandera is clear and it's one I share with another poster on this thread. You really need to follow the thread so as to keep up.

 

If every practical implementation of a theoretical concept is a horrible oppressive bloody failure, people with a brain start to realize that the concept is likely flawed in the first place.

 

Please highlight where the actions of Stalin correspond to Marxism. Cheers.

 

The most interesting thing is this is just the little part of their work. I do not want to shock somebody but just enough to open this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OJyKyinpks

And unfortunately we see people who eulogize these bastards.

 

It also sickens me when for ideological purposes people on here attempt to trivilalize ultra-nationalism as if it were somehow distinct from Nazism or fascism.

 

that's like asking someone to prove a link between Auschwitz and Fascism.

 

Yes indeed. A bit like people putting up pictures of an NF rally here then claiming it represents mainstream UK politics. Don't be such a sucker for what these Kremlin posterbots are up to

 

I was specifically referring to the populist cult of Bandera which cannot be hidden under the carpet. The populism of Bandera in the West of Ukraine is akin to the ultra-nationalist Kemalist streak within Turkish politics. Both are dangerous and both are far from being marginal elements within the body politic of each country as some would imply.