A business must serve gay people, but can discriminate against gun owners?

Accommodation laws are wrong, and we will find out soon enough as the Oregon baker seems to be headed to the supreme court. But even if the former supreme court does not overturn accommodation laws, I will still not serve a gay person who demands I participate in his gay activity. You can claim I will be taken to court and driven out of business, I'm about 99% certain that won't happen and the community I live in will stand with me, just as I will stand with them.

 

Other people have already made most of the good points, but the word I don't see used much here is "reasonable". "Within reason", "In a reasonable persons judgment" and so on are word found everywhere in law. (With the exception of contract law)

Is it reasonable for a business to restrict gun owners from bringing their weapons onto business property? Most law seems to think so. There is a clear potential for deadly violence if firearms are present despite anyones subjective rationalization about it. Ergo, its reasonable to restrict weapons (including knives, crossbows, dynamite, bats, axes, etc etc etc...) from ones business. Of course its not reasonable to restrict unarmed gun owners, idiotic idea really.

Is it reasonable to restrict someone for their sexual orientation? In most cases the law seems to be saying no. Disliking someone for reasons they cannot control has very little legal leverage. What harm can reasonably be expected by a gay person patronizing ones business? Reasonably.

 

So can you leave selfdefensiveness in the car?

 

What exactly is your need to say walk into a bank with a loaded gun? Please explain this to me. Exactly how many mass shootings does it take for gun owners to realize that maybe it's a tad bit off putting to waltz around with a semi automatic military grade weapon strapped to your back?

Think about the other people where you are wandering around, do you seriously think when they see you they are thinking, "My, what a patriotic American exercising his constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms." or is it more likely they are thinking "Oh (*)(*)(*)(*), this is it, this nutcase is going to blow us all away and then it's going to be revealed that he has some right wing manifesto online (*)(*)(*)(*) (*)(*)(*)(*) (*)(*)(*)(*)!"

Of course a person is able to shop at a store or walk into a bank without their firearm.

But hey, if you feel that it is your constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms at all times no matter what, please walk into your bank with your gun strapped on and let us know how that turns out. I especially want to hear what the judge has to say about it.

 

If I'm selling lemonade and somebody comes up that I just don't like. Reasonable or not, why is it reasonable to require me to do business with that person?

It's my place, right? If the very sight of you, or whatever the reason, why is it unreasonable that I cannot expel you from my property because it is my property?

I've met people I hated on sight. Why can't I have an unreasonable hatred of those people? Maybe a wart on their nose, or just because, and I don't know why. I'm just stupid, and can't figure out the reasons why I don't want that person on my property. I don't want to do business with that person because I'm kinda dumb.

Why is it reasonable to say that I can't be unreasonable?

 

Well, if it were a liberal it would be "Oh (*)(*)(*)(*), this is it, this nutcase is going to blow us all away and then it's going to be revealed that he has some right wing manifesto online (*)(*)(*)(*) (*)(*)(*)(*) (*)(*)(*)(*)!"

A normal American wouldn't bat an eyelash.

 

Well, pretty much any sane, rational person, you're right, a liberal.

 

Yeah, I guess being a pantywaist is something to be proud of. Liberal Logic 101. LOL

 

You have a surprisingly abrassive way of agreeing.

 

has there even been an example, where a business owner who did not allow guns on premise, was not robbed as a result of this decision? is it even logical to think there was? a robber saw the no weapons allowed sign, and said to himself, wow I better not rob this place because they don't allow weapons? has there even been an instance where a gun free school zone, stopped a criminal from carrying a gun into that gun free school zone?

are you worried about protecting your fear of the gun, or protecting yourself from criminals? because newsflash, criminals don't care what the sign says... so what are you really protecting? what are you honestly accomplishing? a protection from someones own fears of lawfully abiding citizens, or of actual criminals shooting people?

these defenses never make sense... because they don't accomplish what they state the goal is, to stop deadly violence...

do you know how many of the shootings in chicago this past weekend were in "gun free zones", almost every single one... how many were stopped? none... you know what people who didn't carry those weapons into the business did, they walked out to their cars and got the guns and came back in... WHAT DID YOU PREVENT AND PROTECT WITH THIS LOGIC... nothing... its accomplished nothing...

is it reasonable to pass laws that ultimately don't protect you? is that reasonable? to steal your line, what harm can be expected from a lawful person carrying a weapon using it lawfully? is it reasonable to fear them? or is it only reasonable to fear the criminals, which don't follow the laws or rules set by business owners?

 

How many of those criminals you cited had unhindered access to guns? How many of them were able to purchase that gun legally? Or used a loophole to obtain their firearm legally?

 

ummm I don't think most rational gun owners walk around with "military grade weapons strapped to your back"... its just a sidearm... some folks prefer a revolver, some prefer a semi-automatic... if there is no reason to walk into a bank with a sidearm, why does the bank have a security guard with a sidearm? if there is no reason for this, why would the bank provide one for its own security? why shouldn't someone who carries a lot of cash (such as a business owner like myself making deposits or withdrawals in the tens of thousands of dollars sometimes, like this past holiday weekend) be afforded the same security a bank determines is "reasonable" to steal a phrase someone else used...

99% of people never know I even have a weapon on me, my inside the waist holster blends in with my hip just fine when I wear regular fitting pants... I've talked to many people in person about guns, and the ones who say they would freak out if people around them had guns, and then I ask them if they've felt comfortable around me the last few minutes, and they say of course we're really enjoying this conversation, and then I inform them I am actually carrying a weapon right now... and suddenly they should be afraid of me? so its not a fear of me, its a fear of the gun... it has nothing to do with me... they fear the fear...

P.S. my new bank actually does allow me to walk in while armed, I asked them if that was a problem before moving to the new bank (the old bank said we couldn't even drive into their parking lot with one, guess what, thats the bank I was robbed at making a nightly deposit)... the new bank said most of the owners actually do have firearms... before CCW in my state, the bank required people to notify the branch before entering the bank, just to be safe, they would actually send the guard out to meet the owner before they even pulled into the parking lot and escort them in with deposits during normal hours... now with CCW, they said its optional if we want to have the guard walk out and they are more than happy to send him out to customers who feel safer when making deposits that way, I know some who still to this day call to have the guard meet them outside the front doors (I did this past weekend)... so believe your extreme fears or not, many companies accept and welcome guns...

 

Not sure what you mean discriminate against a gun owner. I don't think anyone would or does. How would one know if they were a gun owner?
Now not allowing a gun on a premises isn't against the owner. Leave it in car and go do all the business you want.

 

Oh, please try it, also wear sunglasses and a hat or a ski mask when you do, (you know, for protection).

Oh, no, it's not that, it's when you add, "Now, give me all your money or I'll blow your (*)(*)(*)(*)ing head off!" that makes them afraid. LOL j/k

And that is their right. Sorry to hear that you were robbed, maybe it's that victim mentality that you hold onto why you feel you need to be armed 24/7. Have you tried talking to a therapist about it? I've personally lived in some pretty rough neighborhoods, I've never had an issue, nor have I felt the need to be armed. But that's me, I don't live my life in fear.

 

I'm waiting to get that data, its actually a lot harder since I have to wait for court records to appear during a trial process, but many times they hang that up for quite often a year or more... how people accept this long of a wait for a trial is beyond my comprehension... however most of the guns used from past crimes I've followed just to find out... are most often stolen guns... so nothing would have prevented those guns... the whole "straw purchase" thing, at least in my area, is actually a small percentage of the guns... so while I agree those people should be held accountable for buying people weapons when they know they can't own one, its such a small amount in what I've been able to read up locally... nationally I don't know what the straw-purchase rate of hand guns are...

ultimately, as long as criminals can steal guns, they will always have guns... I mean some of the guns are traded around so often, multiple murders are tagged to a single gun, and that single gun had been sold to multiple criminals who knew the gun was cheap because it had a murder on it... thats why you can go get $20 guns on the street heh... cause they know if they get caught with it, its a whole lot more trouble than just felon with a gun... its another murder charge they didn't commit...

anyhow, how many of the chicago shootings were prevented by gun laws? chicago has the toughest gun laws and it still doesn't do anything to prevent them... I used to be for a national registry of guns, and forcing people to prove they have ownership, and I used to be the guy who screamed at gun-owners for being irresponsible for not wanting this... and then one day I started to finally track cases in my own city... and started to really look at the evidence... and it was disappointing that my solution would not solve the majority of the crimes... I so wanted it to because we need to do something, but doing something that doesn't work, is just as insane as outlawing guns so only the criminals have them...

I am for background checks, to me that seems like a simple give and take... it doesn't add a lot to the cost or time today with computers, sometimes just 30min waiting in the store, so I'll concede that... and when I had a rifle I wanted to get rid of because I just never used it anymore, I was afraid to sell it to someone, because how could I ever know if they were a criminal or not... so I ended up taking it down to one of the "turn in a gun for a gift card" drives they had... (so most people know, often only gets guns from legal owners who just don't want them anymore and don't have a good method to get rid of them, but hey give me a $200 gift card I'm there)

waiting periods for guns? ehhh states that had waiting periods, and states that didn't have waiting periods, their numbers were so insignificantly different in "crimes of passion" where people went to buy guns and use them right away to kill someone... and for the places where it only applied to hand guns, they bought rifles and did it anyhow so the handgun only waiting period was even sillier... solutions that work, I don't think people can reject, solutions that don't, people will rage against...

is there something specific you'd like to propose that would "solve" problems... I'm willing to bet most gun owners would agree if it solved a regular problem...

 

Weird.

I would never think of leaving security to random idiots who want to carry guns into my store.

And, no, watching guns gathering like some flash crowd is NOT something that belongs in my "now I feel safe" column.

 

If gays could detach their penises and vaginas, you might have point, but they can't so your argument is beyond ridiculous.

 

So, your answer is, put more guns out there, so that potentially more criminals can steal those guns, and then those criminals then can go and commit more crimes. BRILLIANT!

Ever check out suicide rates or accidental shootings for people with lawful firearms? Might be interesting.

But the gun lobby does NOT want background checks enforced. And they DEFINITELY don't want a nation wide background check system in place.

According to the gun lobby, there is absolutely nothing we can do to curb gun violence except arm every single man, woman, child, dog, cat, monkey, and horse.

I would like to see background checks enforced on a nationwide scale, and the private sale loophole closed, I would also like to see people with serious mental conditions restricted until given the green light by a licenced therapist. And real statistics actually disseminated to the population about gun violence instead of the white washed gun lobby covered up crap that is handed out. But that's about it as far as what I want.

 

the strip mall where I am at, the other 7 store owners had all been robbed, and I had been there about I think roughly 9 months without incident... a lot of that had to do with the business I am in, most criminals probably don't even know what my business actually does, little alone would walk in and not look insanely suspicious because its not the typical "retail" store with goods on the shelf normal folks buy, and few would think its a very heavy cash business... the only people who come through our doors, are typically other business people who called ahead or ordered online... so I was lucky to dodge most crimes over the decades... now the others were constantly being robbed and when cops show up, hey we all talked about it, and the cops talked to us on how to work together... (we've actually got a silent alarm system now that when pressed in any of the 8 stores not only contacts law enforcement, but alerts all the other stores with a can you believe it text alert to phones... crazy how much technology has changed)

I never started carrying a gun, until a couple years into the business, another owner was shot... he managed to live, but he was walking out the front door with his nightly deposits, much like I had done hundreds upon hundreds of times myself... complete daylight, dozens of people around... the criminal had no fears of trying to kill him, there were 7 shots I think it was, he was hit 2 times, and said the guy kept clicking the gun even after it was empty... and thats the only thing that saved him from being executed that day... an empty clip...

after that day I went down and bought a hand gun... had to wait 48 hours back then before I could pick it up... let me tell you, its nerve wracking not wanting to get out of your car in your own parking lot... and looking around that any one of these people could be the one... they never caught the guy... they did however later find another guy with the gun dead in a gang shootout later that year... but it wasn't the same guy...

a few years after that happened, and I was way more calm and at ease, I was once again making the nightly bank run, unfortunately I didn't make it in time before close so I had to use the nightly deposit on the wall... and I wasn't aware, this bank had issues of people getting robbed on a regular basis... I can only wonder if its because of not allowing guns and criminals know, or horrible design since you still have to enter the lobby unlike many with it in a drive-thru style... either way, a car pulls up seconds after I've already gotten out and started walking to the front with my bag... hearing tires screech at that moment, every inch of your body tingles and jumps at the same time, you know something bad is about to happen... I turn to look and see a couple guys getting out and I dart instantly... I run around the side of the building, since its the only direction I can go away from them, and now those guys are chasing me and the car comes whipping around the corner and I'm just not going to get away... normally I'd have a gun on my side... but I had gotten SO used to this bank not allowing one, I would slide it off and put it into my center box in the truck... well let me tell you, I really wish I had it at that moment, I would have started shooting the second they came around that corner... instead I ripped into the plastic bag for the cash, and threw it up in the air while I was running... I thought it'd explode out and they'd be busy picking it up, didn't quite work out in the movie way I had hoped... little fell out and most just stayed in the bag while I looked like forest gump running away... at some point they picked it up, but not before I heard a couple pops of gunfire... and I'm sure they weren't firing warning shots at me... I wasn't looking back to find out, I was just running as fast as I could...

let me tell you... it takes hours to stop shaking... and no, you won't sleep that night, or for several nights, and yes every noise you hear freaks you out... its true... normally when I tell this story, I say the next day I went to get a new bank, but it was actually 3 days since I was still freaking out and nervous... thats when one of the other store owners stopped by my house after work and called up his banker who came over that night as well and we went over a bunch of things... let me tell you, not only do I feel much safer now with CCW, but with a bank that allows me to carry that weapon on premise... the side benefit of this whole ordeal, was their processing fee's for credit cards was a percent lower than the other place on top of everything else... and that was before I hit larger milestones dropping it more... so now I'm safer, and I'm saving more money from processing fee's... and they are much better at reviewing lines of credit quicker for expansion, while the other national bank, you can wait weeks just to hear back if they even want to consider your application for review...

the store has still been robbed over the years, but all robberies in that mall have gone way way down after we installed the new system to alert all the stores... turns out the criminals are creatures of habit and once they rob a place, they feel comfy going back again and again... but once word gets out they get busted easy, they really pass the word around to all the other criminals...

I could go on about how two of the owners who have no gun signs (because they are franchises and required to) did not stop getting robbed once the signs went up years ago... didn't scare the criminals away one bit... but when 7 other store owners who for an alert come out into the parking lot with guns... suddenly criminals want nothing to do with you... thats what has worked the best to scare them away... granted I still freak out when I hear that specific ringtone go off, but I'm standing in the doorway looking out with a gun at my side... I've never pointed it at any of them yet, but luckily I'm on the end that has no exit so the others would shoot long before me...

hmmm seems I've rambled on again, I do that often...

P.S. the fear is not something a therapist fixes when you're holding tens of thousands in cash trying to deposit it... I often never carry except while working... but I would defend someones right to carry at any time they choose to... see, its a right to choose, not a right to take away because someone else chooses...

P.S.S you said the "gun lobby" doesn't want background checks, which you seem to lump all gun owners into... newsflash for you, when a poll was taken of NRA members, most agreed there is nothing wrong with a background check... so this means gun owners themselves agree with you... so stop blaming them as some unreasonable set of military style gun loving nutjobs who aren't reasonable... most are every day people, who I'm guessing would agree with you on most things... I know shocking stat there since stereotypes don't fit well in there when one side wants to push an agenda to ban them...

 

well not to get all technical and gross, but some HAVE detached their penises and vaginas... at what point does not allowing a gun-owner inside with a gun, change the level of robberies in that store... what about states, where people openly carry and have for generations, why do they have less crime than states that place restrictions on law-abiding people carrying? nobody in those states freaks out when they see someone with a gun, nobody there screams and runs out of fear because they think they are robbing the place... so why should this occur in some states but not others? if it doesn't cause more crime to happen, why is the fear it will cause crime allowed to ignore the facts of reality?

if you're afraid of guns, thats an issue for you to deal with, just like if someone is afraid of black people, thats an issue for them to deal with... its not right to discriminate against a persons right, just because you're afraid of it... thats why rights are so important, because your fear and opinions shouldn't prevent them from exercising their rights to do or be what they want to...

 

At first I thought that maybe you were being satirical, but I actually think you believe what your posting... wow... I mean WOW...

[/quote]
if you're afraid of guns, thats an issue for you to deal with, just like if someone is afraid of black people, thats an issue for them to deal with... its not right to discriminate against a persons right, just because you're afraid of it... thats why rights are so important, because your fear and opinions shouldn't prevent them from exercising their rights to do or be what they want to...[/QUOTE]

Lol, talk about being myopic. Some people don't have gun fetishes, they simply don't like being around them. Gun owners have been asked to leave their guns at home in various places from the inception of this country.

 

Neither are same sex couples except in some states where same sex couples have to be served or face criminal penalties. In the other states they are simply tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail by the mob..

 

How is baking a cake participating in "gay" activity. What is "gay" activity except for a sex act between two consenting adults of the same sex?

Accommodation laws are wrong? You would prefer we live in society in which a restaurant can refuse service to blacks, mexicans, jews? A society in which a grocery store can refuse to sell groceries to homosexuals because they would participating in "gay activity" by allowing them to eat dinner? What about a motel that will allow black people to stay in the motel but not use their pool?

Public Accommodation has been adjudicated many times and upheld many times. You are dreaming if you think the SCOTUS is going to overturn Public Accommodation.

 

Guns can be used to commit a crime. I have never heard of someone walking in with a loaded gay to harm someone.