Does the cost of the war in Ukraine exceed the benefits?

My take is a little different here. First, I don't know what 'Russia' wants to do in the long term, but I have no doubt in my mind I know what Putin wants and he wants those big fat Russian boundaries of Greater Russia to be his legacy. He will not stop at Ukraine. The real goal of our support for Ukraine, is not to stop Russia from annexing Ukraine ( we were too late for that once those troops invaded), but to make it so time consuming, so deadly, so expensive that a serious distaste for war and its miseries would be the actual legacy that dominate Russian politics for at least a generation. Putin and his cronies shouould be unable to swallow and contain Ukraine, as well as begin to see concrete benefits to its economy, and rebuild militarily and also gain suffiicent political capital to support their next invsaion before they died off or lost power.

So to turn this OP question around, we want Russians to be forced to ask this question "Did the cost of this war, exceed the benefits" for longer than NATO & Europe has to ask it. We want Russia to feel that answer to the marrow of their exhausted bones. That was Biden's goal from day one, and its a sound goal. Its a very nice plus to have two new NATO members and Russia not to even succeed at doing this annexation for over two years! Putin and his govt is getting older, and more tired.

 

I have traveled in every continent except for Antarctica. I have lived in three of them. I grew up in a country that was governed by a dictator. I know a Russian propagandist when I see one. I see one. I can't imagine why you allowed yourself to be brainwashed.

 

Why now, for the first time in our history is it OK for America to not stand up for what is right. Because tRaitor tRump and Putin are buddies we abandon our principals and let Putin run roughshod as he pleases? That would be a HUGE mistake.

Putin annexed Ukraine in 2014, took Crimea and the world let him get away with it. So, in 22, an emboldened Putin attacked Ukraine with 22 Battalions. Fortunately, because of graft and corruption Russian equipment is **** and Ukraine was able to stop Russia's initial attack. Appeasement has never worked when dealing with tyrants. Acquiescing by giving Putin the parts of Ukraine he has occupied will not stop his expansionist goals.

Putin will not be satisfied until Russia has annexed all of Ukraine. So while there may "Be peace in our time", 8 years from now he will move on Ukraine again and then NATO will surely NOT let him succeed. Russia is unlikely to be any better equipped so Putin will be forced, then, to play the nuclear card. THEN we will wish we had stood up to him NOW.

 

And my point going onward is that it already has. He will be dead years before Russia can digest the Ukraine and recover the cost of acquiring it assuming they ever do let alone prepare for more conquests.

 

Not if NATO abandons Ukraine and just stands back, not even stand by. IF that were to happen tomorrow Putin would own Ukraine before winter.

 

A few hundred thousand dead Russians will take a while to recover. Russia has already spent significant amounts of Blood and treasure Much of Ukraine is increasingly a burned out husk. Of little real value to anyone other than the Ukrainians themselves. And Please the numbers were clear and obvious from the beginning. The Ukraine can mount a good defense but they simply lack the manpower to conduct effective offensive operations and defense alone seldom wins wars. Unless NATO is willing to put boots on the ground The Ukraine cannot win.

 

I sometime wonder, does everyone in this form who are pro-Russian are MAGA or Russian troll from one of those Putin Cyber farm? Before 2016 it was unthinkable that conservatives are against NATO and Pro-Russian. I could see pro-Russian liberals , but never thought Pre-Trump GOP/Conservative can be anti-NATO-Pro-Russian.

 

There is no amount of Russian casualties Putin wouldn't sacrifice as long as he wins and doesn't piss off so many people he's assassinated. That's the fine line he has to walk, the casualties themselves mean nothing to him. Much of Ukraine is not a burned out husk, but that's not the point. Putin started this war he has to win it to stay in power. <-Period.

Please, It's never been Ukraine's goal to defeat Russia, all Ukraine wants is for Russians to go home, including from Crimea. And, with help from NATO, Ukraine is very capable of that goal against the paper tiger Russian army. But to your point France is prepared and preparING to put boots on the ground.

 

TRaitor tRump is already their King, they offer absolute fealty to him. IF he says give Ukraine to Putin, they will lobby to give Ukraine to Putin ... NO MATTER how antithetical it is to previous American policy.

 

The world would not be where it is today if Obama, Angela Merkel and Hollande put much stronger economic sanctions on Russia in 2014. Their weakness and worry about western economy is the reason Russia was embolden to attack Ukraine 2nd time in 10 years. You are most likely right, this war will end by West making concession, and Ukraine give up some of their territory to Russia. Ukraine will never win this war, and West will not be Never-Ending-ATM-Machin to Ukraine. However Putin / Russian needs to understand if they attack a country unprovoked , there is consequence. More than 500K Russian killed or wounded, Putin may not care but Russians do. Hopefully that will be deterrence for future aggression.

 

Nonsense And Russia was in Crimea before Ukraine and is almost entirely Russian speaking. Hell it was part of Russian before Stalin began his Russification program which was an attempt to use Russian citizens to make the various SSR into Russian states To that end he transferred the Crimea to the Ukraine. So folding it back into the Ukraine may be at best a mixed blessing if you want a Ukraine independent of Russian influence.

 

BRICS GDP in 2023

Russia 1.8+ China 18.4+India3.7+Brazil 2.1+Iran368+South Africa 405b+Ethopia156b+UAE 499b+Saudi Arabia 1.1t+Argentrina 641b = 28.8T

USA 25.1+Uk 2.8+Canda 1.7+ EU 17 = 46.5T

So .. what are you talking about ?

BRICS taking over? Yea , NATO alliance worry about Ethiopian economy overtaking western economy.

WOW.

 

From Copilot

You
prior to 2014 what country possed Crimea

Copilot
Usingthe web
Prior to 2014, Crimea was a part of Ukraine1. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, Crimea, being a Crimean Oblast of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, became part of the newly independent Ukraine

Kicking the Russians OUT of Ukraine, including Crimea, is the most direct route to Ukraine independence.

• Ukraine will be Ukraine
• Putin could very well be out of a job for starting then losing a war and coming out worse off than when he started.

Which is exactly what pUtin/tRump want to avoid.
And exactly what NATO and the free world are hoping for.

 

I wonder about some of these people who are usually posting on the conservative side of the issues who are now pro Russian and pro Putin. Putin is a particularly loathsome individual. I can’t see anyone, short of a Russian uber nationalist, who would find Putin’s policies or the man himself attractive.

If you are a neo isolationist, I suppose you want to chips fall where they may in Eastern Europe. I had one conservative respond to me that he would be for NATO action if Putin attacked Poland, but, apparently it would okay with him if Putin took Ukraine. The argument is that the Ukrainians are really Russians anyway. It reminded me of the comments made after Hitler took Austria. “They’s really Germans after all. What difference does it make?”

 

Absolutely not. This is the cheapest possible way to defeat a major enemy. Having to fight them ourselves would be a massive cost in blood and treasure.

 

If you were informed of historical events you would know that under Clinton, Putin attempted to join NATO. Clinton thought it was a good idea, but his Deep State advisors told him "No ****in' way".

With all the well documented actions of Nuland, Kerry, McCain and so many others in 2014, Russia has had the high moral ground ever since this fiasco started. The US speaks with forked tongue, and has for 2 centuries or more.

The high moral ground the US achieved during and after WWII was thrown out the door since 1950 or so. As Mike Pompeo bragged, We Lie, We Cheat and We Steal.

 

New leaders, new views. The populist maga leadership is clearly influenced / controlled by Russia whether they admit it or not. Trumps threats against NATO is only one piece (among many) of proof of it.

 

Nobody is proPutin. What most people are is anti nuclear war and for good reason. No one wins that crap. I think those who are against the idea of a negotiated end pretty much along the current boundary line between military forces as an acceptable solution to continuing a war that Frankly has already killed way too many people are insane.

 

I recall when Putin offered to join NATO. I took it to be a publicity stunt. Why have the nation that was supposed to be thwarted by NATO now join NATO? Was Putin going to join us in a war against Iran, China and North Korea?

Putin showed his true colors when he took Crimea during the Obama administration. He knew that he was dealing with a weak president and took advantage.

 

That is what is known as a lame excuse, or binary thinking or chasing the rat down the hole. Note trumps so called threats are why NATO can actually put up a fight at this point.

 

Your position all but assures more war when Russia recovers and goes after the rest of Ukraine. And then it could very well escalate to nuclear.

 

I'm in neither category. I'm an independent thinker who has known since before the Pentagon Papers that the federal government is populated with grifters and pathological liars. Indeed, pathological lies is how the government operates no matter who occupies the White House.

Further, I've followed Oliver Stone, watched his interviews with Putin years ago, watched his documentary The Untold History of The United States. I'm an independent thinker and all the facts and evidence show that NATO has been the aggressor around the world including Libya and Syria and elsewhere. Russia has been the object of military aggression by the US and NATO.

 

Kinda like us taking the southwest states from Mexico?

Putin would have been a fool to surrender Sevastopol to the west. Putin is no fool, unlike the clown imposter currently occupying the White House. Putin is no traitor to his country, unlike the dolt imposter currently occupying the White House.

 

He was frozen out of his most natural alliance and told he had to deal with cold war ad infinitum with the west what do you think he was going to do?

 

So your goal is to entirely depopulate the Crimea? Because that is the only way to kick the Russians out. Your knowledge of history is appalling. The Crimea was a Russian holding from the 1850's to the 1950's. Before that it was an on again off again protectorate of the Ottoman Empire as The Golden Horde. Nice picture of a guy applauding your ignorance.