Breaking: True Unemployment Rate Is At 24.2%

IMO, RP opposition to a much higher minimum wage is a mistake on every level -- especially politically. Of course they should oppose its imposition on small businesses and support generous local, state, and federal subsidies for workers in that sector of the private economy. Subsidizing productive workers is one of the few things government could do rather efficiently.

 

You don't get it, do you?

Let me simplify the argument. For a few years, I was music producer on few albums. Hired by a record company.

I 'produced' a few music albums, back in the day.

Did I play any instruments on the albums? No.

Did I write any music on the albums? No.

Did I sit at the engineer's console? No.

What did I do, then?

But for me, the album would not have happened.

I put it all together, hired everyone, got funding, coordinated
with the engineer, gave song selection advice, concept advice, mastering advice, lots of things, musician selection, did the logistics made sure the thing got produced.

You don't have to actually produce something tangible to be a producer.

What was my product? The album. Yes, there were lots of contributors.

But that doesn't negate the fact that I got a nice fee for producing the album, and record companies don't pay anyone for nothing.

But this idea that the government produces nothing is a false, and extremely so.

In a sense, the Government 'produces' America, laws, policies, policing, defense, civil engineering, airplanes not crashing, food not poisoning folks, lots of things. .

It's abstract, I know, but it's real.

Without a government, there would be no America. It would be China, or Russia.

The Government's product is, therefore, America. No, it's not a widget, but it's just as real as a widget and a helluva lot more important than a widget.

But, aside from the abstract argument, which is real, the government does produce products and services, here are but a few;

1. Postal Services: The U.S. Postal Service (USPS) competes with private courier and delivery companies like UPS, FedEx, and DHL in mail and parcel delivery services.
   
   
2. Public Transportation: Governments often operate public transit systems, including buses, subways, and trains, which compete with private transportation companies, ride-sharing services, and taxi services.
   
   
3. Utilities: In some areas, government entities provide utilities such as water, electricity, and natural gas, competing with private utility providers. Public utilities are often regulated or operated by local or regional governments.
   
   
4. Healthcare: In many countries, government-funded or operated healthcare facilities compete with private hospitals and clinics. In the U.S., for example, Veterans Affairs hospitals and various state-run hospitals directly compete with private healthcare providers.
   
   
5. Education: Public schools and universities provide education services that compete with private schools and higher education institutions. While they serve primarily different demographics, they are part of the same market.
   
   
6. Insurance: In some states and countries, governments provide insurance options that compete with private insurers. For example, some U.S. states offer workers' compensation insurance or health insurance options that compete with private insurance offerings.
   
   
7. Banking and Finance: In some countries, state-owned banks compete with private banks. For example, the Export-Import Bank of the United States provides government-backed loans to exporters, competing indirectly with private financial institutions offering similar financial products.
   
   
8. Housing: Government agencies often provide public housing, competing with private real estate companies and landlords in offering residential accommodations, particularly in the affordable housing segment.

This is aside from police, fire, and defense.

In short,. your argument is bogus on many levels, the abstract AND the concrete.

 

As the 'producer' of the record album, you were like a "general contractor".. and it seems fairly clear that your product (the actual 'product') was the record album itself. Indeed, you said, "What was my product? The album. Yes, there were lots of contributors." Thus, it's fair to further observe that you were the general contractor who coordinated the various services, facilities, physical location(s), and necessary commodities and material items, and who hired a staff of subcontractors of many different kinds for all of that. Together, all of you produced (PRODUCED) a product... as you accurately stated, the product was the ALBUM!

I think you have confused "producers" with "FACILITATORS". Facilitators, and service-providers can be part of teams that do produce something, but they aren't the actual corporate entities that conceive, build, market, and sell something. Government is the perfect example of a vast array of facilitators and service-providers -- but -- as I've already observed, it doesn't actually produce anything.

Government equips a society with the ability to produce! The taxpayers of the United States yield the money through various kinds of taxation for the government to provide for the infrastructure, the machinery, the manpower, etc. for our society to be productive and to thrive, but, it doesn't actually produce anything!

 

You're using a different methodology. I could take it a step further and say, well, there are 330,000,000 people and roughly half are employed (167 million or so), thus unemployment would be 50%.

Is that a useful stat?

No.

Same goes for the Axios article. Not as extreme, but in that direction.

I think the gov methodology is something on the order of counting that which they feel the gov can control and be responsible for.

If you change the methodology, you have to change it all the way back, and start anew, but what would be the point? Repubs wouldn't be different than Dems with your new methodology. Now, from the beginning, if they had used that methodology, and unemployment was around 25% from the get-go, we'd be used to it, perspective wise, but with the current methodology,.arriving at 3.5%, switching wouldn't put the stat in a normative perspective. The point is, Do it one way, whichever way you do it, and we've been doing it a certain way for a long time, so I don't think anyone is going to change the methodology at this stage of the game.

 

Oh please.
"Government" didn't produce a bit of that. Government didn't pay for it either.
We did.
Yes, government "ordered" up Hoover dam for example, but they didn't build it and they paid for it by taxing the rest of us and taking their cut in the process.

Government isn't in business to "produce"anything. Government exists primarily to take care of our security and fight our wars when it comes to that. But in the end government is a big fat leech we voluntarily attach to ourselves "for the common good".

And in my opinion both we and government forgot the deal we made with ourselves sometime shortly after WWII.

 

Just an FYI, the "true unemployment rate" at the end of 2019 and beginning of 2020 was over 25%. In fact, the "true unemployment rate" never went below 24.2% at any time between 1995 and 2021 (the absolute lowest point between 2017 and 2021 was 24.3%)

https://www.lisep.org/tru

Unwittingly, you just shared that we have one of the lowest true unemployment rates of all time

 

Nonsense. Stop it.

Your claim is false, on both levels, abstract and concrete. I just explained it to you in detail.

 

Reread my comment, in it's entirety.

 

https://e.infogram.com/_/Qms6EOsVSsOWVc1XbVcq?parent_url=https://www.lisep.org/tru&src=embed#async_embed

I think we are getting lost in the reeds here. Here are the simple facts:
- If you go by the BLS numbers, Biden has a very very very good record on unemployment
- if you go by the LISEP numbers, Biden has THE BEST RECORD of any president since the inception of this measure in 1995;
- The OP and some other posters here are trying to use the LISEP numbers for Biden and compare them to Trump using the BLS numbers which is of course either dumb or very dishonest.

Just click the link that has been provided three times already. This should put this ridiculous point by the OP to rest

 

And just to make this crystal clear:
Biden's TRU unemployment numbers which the OP dishonestly tries to paint as catastrophic have been under 25 percent since September 2021. I know that makes it sound bad, but let's put this into perspective:
Since 1995 NO PRESIDENT HAS HAD unemployment under 25 percent (except one quarter under Trump (he was well over 25 percent for the other 15 quarters) and it has been under 25 for 12 straight quarters under Biden!!!!!!
So the headlines should read ANOTHER INCREDIBLE AND HISTORIC UNEMPLOYMENT QUARTER FOR BIDEN!!!!!!

I am going out on a limb guessing we won't be hearing from the OP anymore here.....

 

It’s your premise. You should probably fix it. All I did was point it out

 

You have failed to differentiate government "services" and required societal facilitation from tangible production. We have reached an impasse.

Both government ("civil service") and private enterprise employ people -- that much was never in question. But only one of those sectors actually produces anything -- private enterprise! And what Biden's handlers have been doing, as quickly as possible for over half a year, is to see to it that government hires as many people for civil service jobs in order to "put a little more lipstick on a pig"....

You may enjoy: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/biden-administration-job-growth-numbers-175321823.html

 

A product, in the broadest sense of the word, does not need to be tangible.

end of argument.

 

A 'service', or 'facilitation', by contrast, can have a direct impact on the production of a 'product', but it cannot be confused with a product.

Yes, as I said before, we have reached an impasse....

The municipal utilities department may supply electricity (service), but it didn't manufacture, market, or sell light bulbs (product).

Afterthought: maybe this is just one of the "Tower of Babel" things....

 

I will repeat it one more time:A product does not need to be tangible in order to be characterized as a product.

https://www.coursesidekick.com/marketing/study-guides/boundless-marketing/what-is-a-product

A product can be classified as tangible or intangible.

Therefore to claim that the government does not produce anything is incorrect.

The government's product is governance, an intangible product

It also provides a whole list of other services which are, in the broadest sense of the term, intangible products.

This is fact, there is no counter argument.

 

When have they ever not

 

You're not wrong! Where the scam come from is choice of U the BLS uses, U3 being the preferred method..

Many economists feel it's to simplistic and doesn't give true/accurate count.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080415/true-unemployment-rate-u6-vs-u3.asp

So true, theres been no change change as you say, but they BLS has manipulated the way data can be used to give the unemployment the appearance they choose

 

From your source, "coursesidekick.com" (which is a new one on me), I took note of several points:

"Key Terms
core product: The core product identifies what the consumers feel they are getting then they purchase the product.
tangible product: The tangible product is reflected in the quality, features, brand name, styling, and packaging.
augmented product: The supporting services surrounding the product, such as after-sales service for a machine, or parking spaces for a department store." The author casually lumps "supporting services" which "surround the product" as being a part of the product itself!

Then he goes on to dissect the nature of a "product" further:

"Levels of the Product: The four levels of a product include core, tangible, augmented, and promised.
Price
Store environment and/or surroundings
Brand promise/ value
Advertising and marketing activities
Buyer's past experience
Accessibility or convenience
Brand reputation
Packaging"

(But I didn't see "services" in that enumeration....)

Then he continues...

"We begin with the notion of the core product, which identifies what the consumers feel they are getting when they purchase the product."

"Once the core product has been indicated, the tangible product becomes important. This tangibility is reflected primarily in its quality level, features, brand name, styling, and packaging. Literally every product contains these components to a greater or lesser degree."

Again, no disagreement.

But then he strays into the hypothetical realm of conjecture:

"The next level is the augmented product. Every product is backed up by a host of supporting services. The buyer often expects such services, so they will reject the core-tangible product if these are not available."

Here, the author assumes that the actual product will require an extended warranty, or some kind of performance guarantee insurance for a negotiated period of time -- customarily at a price -- and, if so, is an ancillary product on its own! But, again, such "support services" are not part of the actual thing the customer bought, unless they were features built-into the "what's-in-the-box" description.

Again, I would remind you that, in big 'chunks', what we have in a free-market economy are "goods" and "services". "Manufacturing" and "Service" sectors. Both are necessary for best-in-class attainment in a free market economy, but they should never be "marble-caked" together in a business context....

. But it works very well for pastry!

 

You said the government produces nothing

On its face that is a false statement.

 

There is no impasse, a product can be intangible or intangible.

If you can't accept that FACT, not much I can do about it.

Sorry, it's not debatable.

 

OK, then maybe it's time to return to the actual thread topic... and as I've already said, there's no way that I can conclude that the current unemployment rate is 24.2%. We may be able to agree on that much....

One more time, I'll propose that the U-6 report within the U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics site (link below) shows, according to the relevant criteria, the true unemployment rate in the United States, through April, is 7.4% -- and rising. Have a lovely day!

Link: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

 

The problem with your methodology, is that either, from the outset, we use your methodology, up to the current, or we use some other methodology. The BLS decided on some methodology, and it would be imprudent to change the rules in the middle of the game.

For example, using your methodology from the beginning, then unemployment rates of 24% or so would be common since they were tracking them with that method.

But, if you change the rules, use a different methodology, (as you are doing) then suddenly use that as a comparative base on the present methodology, it makes it seem that, under the present methodology, it went from 3.5% to 24%, which is SPECIOUS reasoning, and is unfair.

Whatever the method is used, they need to use it from the beginning through to the current, so we KNOW what the NORM is.

If you played a game by a certain set of rules, where the teams averaged about 100 points per game, and with the new set of rules, they averaged 50 points per game, did they play worse?

No, they didn't. And THAT is the point. Using the former as a comparative base for the latter is unjust, and specious. Figure out what rules you are going to use, and stick with them, otherwise you invite chaos or cheap political points.

 

The Bureau of Labor Standards chose to sort its measurement criteria into six different categories -- not me. I choose the "U-6" report because it is the most all-inclusive. The government (no matter which political faction is in charge) prefers to use the "U-3" report.

What does the "U-3" measure?

"Total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor force (official unemployment rate)"

How many arguments have we heard for decades about exactly who, what, and how-many the "civilian labor force" actually is composed of...? That's the area where the "cheap political points" abound -- and both Republicans and Democrats are expert at working them....

Now. What does the U-6 measure?

"Total unemployed, plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force."

Especially in the "marble-caked" economy and job market of the post-"Great Recession" period, it is necessary to measure all those "marginally attached to the labor force", part-time workers, and those of various kinds in the "gig economy". I'm sure that all those people who have to work several different full and/or part-time jobs, or just get whatever kind of 'gig' jobs they can find, would agree that they should be included, too.

 

Most politicians use publicized job reports that look the best. People like sound bites not complex facts and figures with 'ifs and buts', etc. If an individual wants to dig deeper, he or she may do that, as you have done, but........

So what?

 

They only do that because ignorant people haven't a clue or care to know the truth..