Looters vs. Producers....

What he's saying makes perfect sense. Just not if you begin with the presumption that money is more important than work.

 

That's exactly the point. The capitalist brings nothing but capital that was taken from the production of capital by workers in the first place.

You can have a thousand people contribute to a project, but the only contribution you recognize is the one who did nothing except put up money that was gained by putting up nothing but money earlier, and it all traces back to a government grant of natural resources that belonged to everyone in the first place.

 

The capitalist has the monopoly on the means of production??? Uh, no, but thanks for playing.

 

That makes no sense. Capital is already produced goods which people use to produce goods and services. We're not talking about who creates the things you work with. We're talking about who provides the things you work with.

Okay this is getting dumb. Who provides the capital you use to work with? Who provides the cashiers for the store clerks to use? Who provides the computer for the file clerks to use? Who provides the machinery for the construction worker to use? Who provides the assembly line for the car assemblers to use?

Cashiers, computers, heavy machinery, assembly lines. These are all examples of Capital. Who provides them: The workers or the employers?

 

It makes sense if you don't understand economics.

 

Ah no? Develop this, please.

 

You're right. It was wrong of me to do so. I apologize.

When I first saw OWS, I thought "What a bunch of whackjobs!" - just like when I fist saw the MSM coverage of the Tea Party. So I went and saw for myself.
Just like the Tea Party, OWS has its' fair share of whackjobs. But virtually every person we videoed in their camp, had the same concerns:
* Get the influence of Corps, PACs and Unions out of elections & policy, and put that control back in the hands of the people.
* Stop giving our money to foreign countries and their corrupt politicians.
* No more bailouts. Any company that hasn't paid everything back should be broken into "Small Enough to Fail" components.
* No tax deductions for opening facilities or shipping jobs overseas.
* No tax breaks of subsidies to any company that doesn't hire 100% American and pay its' taxes 100% in America.
* Give access to our Representatives back to the people they represent. For every hour spent with a CEO or Lobbyist, five should be spent with citizens who have legitimate concerns to discuss.

Now sure, there are tons of other goals out there and OWS is still in its' embryonic phase. But I can definitely get behind the points above. Other than the first point and the point about protecting tax breaks for multi-national corporations, it sounds a lot like the messages I've heard from a lot of Conservatives nowadays.

 

Humans are driven to change the environment. The ones who can build. The ones who can't destroy.

 

When you put it that way it mkaes it seem like they aren't crazy. Then you look at the people who are on the street supporting them. the filty majority who have no jobs and never will. After all how could you be out there camping out and prtesting when your expected to show up at work in the morning? If the OWS would say clear and simple what you stated above there would be more people who could find them reasonable complaints. Yet instead you have the hundreds of people on the street saying the government has to feed them.

another issue to consider is that we need to give reasons for corporations to stay in america. If it is cheaper oversea's if they can produce the same product for dirt cheap then why do it here? It sucks but its an issue

 

Read the book for yourself... refuse to let others tell you what it is all about...

 

I cannot say I agree with all of the ideals of OWS. I'm not a fan of getting something for nothing. However, There are some ideals I agree with.

I'd like to see us getting big money out of politics altogether. I'd like to see employers not treat their employees like machines they can run ragged until they break, And then throw away and replace anew. I'd like to see as much of the waste and fraud eliminated from welfare, Indeed from all government as possible.

I, And I'm sure many others are, Willing to work for our living. But we are not willing to slave like those in countries that have no labor laws or environmental regulations. I cannot see the benefit of me working 60-80 each week to make LESS money than I do now, While the higher management and CEO's make more and more money without putting out more work themselves.

Thank you for your time.

 

Rather than argue against you... let me try to follow this...

If the workers do all of the work, and the business owner is not really needed, then why is it that a collection of leaderless workers have not started making products and selling them for profit yet? Are all the workers in the US so foolish that they have not realized by now that all they need to do is randomly start making things for profit.

Oh.... but wait a minute here... If you want to say make shoes to sell... you would need....

Leather, string, other assorted shoe making stuff, shoe making equiptment, tools, a building to make all of these shoes in, a box to put the shoes in, and perhaps some marketing to let people know how good your shoes are, so people WANT to buy them.

Does a leather worker have the knowlege, skill, understanding, or the money to put together such a list of things? Would a leather worker even WANT to deal with all of that? The business owner is the one that has the vision of a product that he wants to produce, an understanding of all of the people, tools, and talents to make a pair of shoes, and the money to hire all of the people to do the work, and to rent out a building to make the shoes in. Understanding how all of the "moving parts" work in a company is not trivial! I am certain their are aspects of it that neither you nor I would have every considered to be able to sell a product. Does a leather worker have knowledge of advertising, legal issues, or return on investment charts? A business owner DOES....

Just assembling all of the people, machines, tools, and materials in a building somewhere would never insure that a single pair of shoes ever gets made. There is no plan of what the shoes should look like, how much they should cost to produce, how much they can get sold for, so the profit can be high enough to pay all of the workers, etc. These are things that only a business owner is capable of doing. If a leather worker was really able to do all of that himself, he would certainly put down his tools, and start a shoe company of their own! It would be far more profitable to do that. And sometimes after years of work, learing, and saving.... they might do just that.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if being a business owner rather than a worker is so much more profitable (which it is), then why do not more workers become business owners? The answer is... most workers either can't (do not have the ability), or do not want to (do not have the desire). There is huge risk in starting a company. If the company should go bankrupt do the workers loose any of their savings? NO!!! but the owner does. The workers did not pay for the building, or the equipment they are using, but the owner did. So being a worker is far less risky than being an owner. If your company should get sued for some reason. And the company looses the suit, do the employees have to pay the court fees? No.... but the business owner does.

Owning a business is a far more difficult thing than you think. I would recommend reading more about it, before making a judgement...

 

So are you telling me... that if I were to put the resume of you and somone in higher management or the CEO side by side that I would see no differences? Even if they do not work the same number of hours a week that you do... are you claiming that you have the same skills and abilities that the CEO does? If the answer is NO... then that is why you are where you are, and they are where they are. If the answer is YES.... then get out there and start your own company it is WAY more profitable!!!!

 

Workers. The people that made them.

 

As a business owner, I'm familiar with the problems of owning a business. You know what the biggest problem is? Undercapitalization. Trying to start a business without enough capital is generally considered madness. The modern business model assumes that most businesses won't start to generate a profit for three years, and won't get itself out of debt for possibly a decade or more.

The reason that people with skills don't start businesses is that the capitalist system is set up so that you need the permission of capitalists to do pretty much anything in the business world. If you've got the skills, but not the capital, you have to go work for a capitalist and spend your time making them money. You may be able to save up enough money in the margins over time, but for most people it's not actually cost-effective.

There's a distinct barrier called lack of capital that prohibits most people from owning their own business. They can run one on behalf of a capitalist who does nothing but put up the capital, but it's the capitalist that makes the money and calls the shots in that situation.

Our system is set up to make people need the rich.

 

I never said it was EASY to start a thriving business. As a matter of fact, it is one of the hardest challenges I can think of to do. That is preceisely why so few do it, and also why those that do, and are successfull at it, make the amount of money that they do. If running a business was easy... everyone would do it, and everyone would be wealthy. Obviously that is not a realistic vision.

And by the way.... "shame on you", for saying that you need the "permission of capitalists" to start your business? That is utter nonesense! This is the culture of "negativity" that I talk about in so many of my posts....Will you have to work for someone else for a while, maybe a great long while for you to save enough start up money to get things rolling... sure! But EVERY owner had to go through that at one point or another. Very few people are trust fund babies... the vast majority of the rich... are first generation rich. That means that they worked for someone for a while, built up money.... and then started their own thing. Obviously THEY made it happen... I am sure you can too....

If I can give you 10 examples of people that started their companies with $1000 or less, and went on to become million dollar plus businesses could I convince you that you are wrong? How many examples would I have to give of how it really does not take a lot of money to make it happen for you to be convinced?

One off the top of my head is Dave Ramsey, radio talkshow finance guy. He started his company on a card table in his living room, wrote a book, and sold them one at a time. His company is now worth millions...

 

So the workers make their own cashiers and heavy machinery and then use them to work with at their own job?

Are you intentionally being dense?

 

You listen to David Ramsey? I hope you don't pay...If you do, you should get your money back.

 

Well, we managed to survive pretty well for all those years until 2001 when the laws passed that changed the tax code and made gave domestic companies strong advantages for causing unemployment here in America. So yes, that is an issue and is something OWS want's reversed.
Right now there is a strong, systematic effort to lower wages in the USA until they're comparable to India or China (where over 200,000,000 people live on less than a dollar a day).
So let's say we bring the labor back. What would happen to the price of cars? They would probably go up by 3 - 8%. But the number of people able to buy them would increase dramatically. The price of food? Almost 0%. We don't outsource that. The price of laptop computers? Less than a point or two, if that.
But they want Americans to believe that bringing jobs back to America would be a bad thing - or that America's problems would be solved if we would just lower wages until New York looked like Calcutta.

It is mind-boggling that so many Americans are buying into this.

 

Literally millions of people have gotten their financial lives straightened out by listening to him, and he helps people make financial decisions on a daily basis. Plus I have NEVER heard of a person that followed his advice and came out WORSE than if they had just continued doing their own thing. With a track record like that... why would you be so down on him? Do you listen to his show?

 

Like I said, I hope you got your money back if you paid him.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S98_eMax9xo"]Dave Ramsey Calls Schiff an Idiot[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VpxCBUwJpw"]Peter Schiff Response[/ame]

 

First of all, cashiers are people. Cash registers are machines, and they are built by workers.

You're the one talking as though arbitrary economic systems trump the laws of physics and cause and effect.

 

Whatever you want to call them, who provides the capital? How do workers have the capital available for them to use at work so they can be productive?

No, that would be Keynesianism which I do not subscribe to. You're the one who is having trouble answering a simple question for whatever realization you are afraid of discovering.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGC09B810Yk"]Everything You Know Is Wrong[/ame]

 

No, What I'm trying to say is I do not believe that CEO's are putting out hundreds of percents more work now than they were twenty plus years ago. And yet, Their pay has skyrocketed compared to the average employee.

I feel this is wrong. If an employee cannot get a decent raise even when they are putting in much more work, Why should the CEO?

Thank you for your time.

 

Philosophically I agree with you. Every person is captain of their own destiny. But there's a practical reality that's hard to avoid.

Theoretically, one of the great things about America is that we're supposed to be the land of opportunity, a place where rags-to-riches stories are more commonplace, a part of the culture. But our economy actually seems to be working against the opportunity of the working class. Working your way up the ladder, or even just working your way to the point that you can afford any of the diseases that all of this industry is making so prevalent ... it's requiring more than we should be asking of people. We're supposed to the place where life is good, not the place where life is miserable and everyone spends their lives in drudgery and toil. And maybe that is up to each individual, to shape their own lives, but I think we can all make it easier on each other. We should make it easier on each other.