Challenge the Christian Bible

I thought Mehmet was asking why God let his Son die, which Is why I answered the way I did.

 

How could there be a God that punished adultery with death, but has no penalty for slavery. The Bible has no penalty for slavery, but again, the punishment for working on the Sabbath was death.

 

read this long post,
after this one i will write short ones.
don't have much time and...
i don't want to bore you to death.

is it too late though?



according to islam.
ignorance is not just animal sacrifices to idols.
ignorance in its core is ignoring your only creator
and assigning partners, sons, or what have you to him...

all pantheons had that, now christianity (formerly islam) has it too.
it has been the trap for mankind all along.
look at the history of religions.

why not there isn't one single religion that has one single God,
and that's it.

again, why there isn't one single religion doctrine that says:
here is God, no partners, nothing that's it.

you and Allah.
that's it.

"beleiving in the unseen".

how do you do that, when you brain works mainly
on images and impressions.

you deify a righteous man.
put your mind at ease.

do you know why the image and sculpture is forbidden in islam?
i think it's forbiden in the old testament too, not sure though...

here is why:

in old times, people believed in Allah, just like islam teaches:
one God, no partners, all belong to him, no equivalent, everything
is creation except him for he is the creator. right?

and there were very righteous and loved men among those people.
they were sharing a good life, praying, living at peace and so on...

but eventually those righteous men died.
so naturally they were missed very much.
for years and years and years...

but this wasn't the problem.

the problem started with "sheitan" coming in the picture.
here is the rough conversation:

- don't you miss them?
- yes we do, very much.
- don't you want them near you?
- we wish it was possible...
- then why don't you make sculptures of them or paintings?
and put them in your houses so that you can remember them.

and they said "why not"...
the intention was good.

so they did the sculptures, painted the paintings,
put them in their houses. and remembered them...

generations have passed.

their descendents thought... "since those people that
we remember dearly have been so righteous and just
they might have an influence on God. so why don't we
pray to them, so that we can get our prayers answered"...

then they started praying. to them.
started to ask "things" from those people,
in fact from sculptures.

thus those righteous people have become their idols.

generations have adopted the same traditions.
and forgetten why those sculptures have been made for.

that's the rough history of idols.
they were indeed rightous people.

for example:
many idols in ancient arabia in pre-islamic era
were those kind of idols. they recognized Allah, but
the other idols have become "intercessors" and perhabs side deities... ​

now jesus (pbuh)...
any relevance we see here?

let's move on:
that "kill for love" crucifixion scenario...
i am trying to make sense of it but everytime i try to
hold it, the handle breaks.

here is a test for you.
try to explain the christian salvation and God in
trinitarian form to a child by telling him -one time-
"the whole deal".

then ask him/her what is God.

if (s)he gets the answer right, with no hesitation.
then i will not say one more word.

God's message must be simple yet endlessly deep.
must be understood by the blind, the poor, the child, the old, everyone.

to be perfectly honest;
most of the christians don't even understand the trinity.
they live by it but they don't 100% get it.
because it simply is not possible to grasp it.

"give up your intellect". sure i understand that.

but it means, give up your intellect when understanding Allah,
it doesn't mean give up your intellect while questioning the
path to Allah.

within the parameters, reason all the time.

what parameters? history of idolatry for instance.
find the similarities, cons, pros, get in the psychology of belief,
search cultural side of religions, think about social impact on faith, so on...

giving up your intellect voluntarily before God is one thing and
turning your back to your intellect and ignoring the beautiful
gift that Allah has given you, being a moral and intelligent
creature, is another.

you and wanren occasionally have been saying different things.
i have been watching but hoping you would meet in a common point.

that's ok.
people might have different opinions.

but after pages of discussion,
i can't even get a hold of a solid doctrine.
so that we can start the main discussion.

maybe i didn't ask the right questions.
to me everything is floating now.
let's try an alternative path in order to go on:

can you claim that what's written here is correct?
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/salvation.htm

you have a tendency towards good and bad.

man is capable of horrible acts
but can also perform the most beautiful deeds.

you are not born with "original sin".
this is guilt stamp from birth.

"but sooner or later you'll sin".

yes but this fact does not make you a natural born sinner.
original sin is humanity unloading its burden of life:
"we are made sinful, but we are free of guilt; jesus (pbuh)
was sacrificed for us".

this closes all paths for spiritual progress.
the capacity to sin does not make sense anymore,
nor doing good.

think of it like this: if in fact muhammed (saw)
were the messenger of Allah, yes? then;

you would be denying the prophet of Allah.
and you would be denying the message of Allah.
and you would be denying the revealed path of Allah.

is this ok?

the lightest way to put it would be:
you discard and disrespect Allah.

muslims following muhammed (saw)
is no where near christians assigning jesus (pbuh)
as an "additional" part of God.

you know that.

and i know you try to find a parallel between the two.
but there isn't. the parallel is: they were both prophets,
leaders of mankind. and they both carried a valuable message:

Allah is your only lord.
here's the reason of your existence.
here's what expected of you.
go on now value your life accordingly.​

you guys should understand this...
islam is the only castle left in the fight against idolatry and falshood.
there is no other.

every single religion in the world
mingles the creator with the creation.

christianity has beautiful teachings.
sermon on the mount... beautiful.
but the essence of the message has been corrupted.

you cannot show me one religion other than islam.
not one single. that has setting the creator and the
creation apart.

what does this tell us?

i might be ignorant in many parts.
i am telling you as much as i know.
may Allah forgive my errors.
and please forgive me too, if i undeliberately gave
you any incorrect information.

12:76
We raise in degrees whom We will, but over every possessor
of knowledge is one [more] knowing.​

1) christianity has no way of dealing w/ "personal" rights.
if you comit the sin, just turn to jesus (pbuh), say you're
sorry then have your "peace of mind". and the people
who died? their families? how do you bring justice to those.
islam has a solution for that. you like it or not, it has.
you are responsible to Allah and also to all men and to animals.

you also know that justice is a very tricky thing.
generalizing and ignoring certain aspects cannot be
pursued in this matter.

2) according to islam the christian guy who killed 1000 people
has not only commited a terrible act by ending those lives,
but on top of it he also turned to Allah and commited the only
unforgivable sin: assigning partners, equals to him.

but according to christians he is already forgiven.

Allah-u a'lem.

i agree partly.

muslims don't live in paranoia.
but they are aware of the fact that no matter how many times
you tell yourself you are forgiven, it doesn't change the fact that
maybe you did not earned it, and you deluded yourself.

expecting and hoping is one thing.
being sure of the final judgement is another.

sin -> aftermath -> judgement -> verdict

sin
by you

aftermath
you asking forgiveness from Allah
and then if parties are involved;
as in, people that you stole from
or broke their heart, so on...
you make it up to them.

judgement
by Allah alone

verdict
by Allah alone​

Allah is endlessly forgiving, but also fair to all of his creatures.
not just to the ones who seek forgiveness, but to everyone.

 

christianity islam and judaism are like...
three arrows going to the same target.

only one will reach at the heart of that target.
the rest will miss the mark.

the arrows have been set from the same height.
so if you look them laterally,
you see three of them going to the same target.
no problem.

but if you look them from the bird's-eye view,
you see clearly which one is actually headed to the target.

thus, the perspective is everything.

-----

the events that are happening in the world,
that we witness almost daily... are carefully calculated.

those are not just random people terrorizing
the world in the name of islam.

we know that.
you don't.

you will understand soon, i hope.
because you will witness new things from this year on.

 

That is why God instructed Moses to write down His instructions.

Exodus 17:14
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."

God or men did not or never assign partners to God, it is Muslims who are saying that because they lack the proper knowledge and that ignorance is why they claim God has partners. Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not partners they are One in God as evidence of ancient scriptures that Muslims have intentionally refuse to accept and deleted from their learnings.

all pantheons had that, now christianity (formerly islam) has it too.
it has been the trap for mankind all along.
look at the history of religions.

Pantheons are temples of pagan religions that worship mythical gods and goddesses. Arabs are well known to be heavy worshippers of pantheon religion they got gods and goddesses represented by stones and rocks. Pantheon gods and goddesses is what God has warn men to watch out for that is why the Jews were assign the task to spread the God’s words and to write it down so that men of the future will not forget.

There was one single religion the One God of the Jews (Old Testament, Judaism), the God of Abraham and Isaac that existed. God was very clear Thou shall not have strange gods before me” only Muslims kept on insisting that God has a partner, the Bible is very clear One God only and that One God has been taught for more than 3000 years. And the reason Muslims kept on insisting is because they have deleted many historical Scriptures from their learning.

Christians do not worship idols, Christians do not worship saints and righteous men and again Christians never claim God has partners. Righteous men are to be remember and honor. Pray for the dead and for the living has and always has been part of early scriptures, the problem is Muslims have ignore those scriptures that is why they associate the honoring the dead and the righteous as idolatry when clearly it is not but worse is that Muslims have intentionally removed Jesus Christ teachings and revelations that He is the Son of God and One with God, thus Muslims have seriously sin against God for brutalizing His scriptures.

The most revealing testament that we should honoring individuals is in the Ten Commandments; Exodus 20:12“Honor your father and mother that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God give you.” And then it was repeated in Deut. 5:16

Children relates to Jesus Christ very easily because they can easily understand that Jesus is the son of God just like them has a father and just like us Jesus will die for us as we are willing to die for our parents and love ones.

That is why Jesus came to us to make things simple.

If one does not or can not accept Jesus Christ, not only the Trinity but the entire Bible will not be understood. Many Muslims can not and are not supposed to understand the Quran or Allah but just to submit to his will.

And have you understood Allah’s path yet? If so then why so many unanswered questions about Islam and the Quran? Is that part of giving up your intellect or just redirecting your intellect by denying establish historical scriptures and doctrines?

As long as Muslims continue to deny and ignore establish historical facts on essential scriptures and doctrines that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God, and the Holy Spirit, Muslims will never have a complete learning and knowledge of true salvation. It is one thing to disagree on secondary issues such as Trinity, Mary, Saints, Eucharist, or purgatory. But to intentionally delete and ignore the essential Scripture and Doctrine of Jesus Christ is the son of God base on establish historical and well kept documents is simply blasphemy and sacrilegious, in fact Muslims especially their scholars are guilty of intentionally misleading thousands of Muslims from the true history and path of the Abrahemic faith.

 

Two things here.

1. Judaism is a monotheistic religion as well.

2. So is Christianity... We simply believe that God had a son with Mary, don't you guys ? This is why Jesus is called "son of God" ... It is quite simple really.

Who are you to say God can't have a son ? That isn't a logical paradox or a contradiction such as the "God creating a rock he can't lift" example you tried to pass off earlier. (by the way)

The term "Partners" does not apply,it shows the inability to understand the Jesus/God relationship.

Who is a righteous man ? Huh ?

I get it .. I understand the problem with idols ... It is not Jesus' fault that some people paint pictures of what they think he looked like ... That is what artists do.. I don't know one single Christian that actually prays to an inanimate object but we pray within ourselves to the "unseen." You seem to thing we worship a 'fleshy' man but we don't, we worship the Spirit that Jesus possessed -God's Spirit .. There is no distinction.

Kill for love ? They didn't kill him for love, they killed him because they hated him. It is really quite that simple.

Why did God allow for this ? I already told you, for the Love of mankind. He didn't have to and neither did Jesus but God and Jesus were one in will and Spirit so this was an act of love for humanity... You could ask these questions until you are blue in the face.

E.G. Why does God allow innocent children to die ? etc..etc..etc...

How about You just telling me what God is,as well as everyone else and see how many people get it ? That's right, a child won't question that God is our creator but they will ask why we were created, why do bad things happed to good people,etc... Here is the puzzler, why not explain God's Love and mercy to the Children that are bald and dying from cancer treatments and see if they understand God's Love. A child will accept anything you pretend to know about God. You know nothing except "creator." But I would teach my child the same.. Because that is what the Christian Belief is.

Trinity easy... "Our creator had a son with a woman and his name was Jesus and he taught people the best way to live, being the son of God, he was special".. Not that difficult.

You are only basing that of you inability to perceive it .. Surely you don't understand it because you put limitations on God, that he must "exist outside of" and what not.

Me and Warren had a difference of opinion on a single scripture and that happens, yes, but fundamentally we both accept the same God.

I noticed that you and Fatihah didn't agree on everything either. It happens.

You can reject "original sin" all you like because it makes absolutely no difference.. That fact that you are born "innocent" with tendencies is a fact either way. You are 'DESTINED' to sin is what makes you a natural born sinner. Two sinners cannot produce a non-sinner.

I have to continue this in another post. It said it was too long.

 

a side note:
judaism and christianity are close to monotheism.
but they are not.
they are mingling the creation with the creator.

"close enough but not there".

that's maybe one of the reasons Allah
included them in the qur'an.

so that we can compare
and don't do the same mistakes.
so that they can compare
and see the guidance.

i'll wait for you to finish your post.

see? this was a short one.

 

Have you ever read Genesis? The very origins of Judaism and Christianity come from a single God creating the heavens and the earth. The authors of Genesis even make it a point not to mention the sun or the moon in the creation account, since they used to be worshipped as gods.

Muhammed came to know about the Old and New testaments through a Nestorian monk by the name of Bahira. Writing in the eighth century, St. John of Damascus harshly criticized Islam for being an idolatrous heretical religion. Muslims at the time used to kiss and rub themselves on the Ka'ba.

It is far more likely to believe that Muhammad, came into contact through a heretical Christian monk, decided to devise his own heresy, then to believe that Jews and Christians have tampered with the holy texts. With the thousands of Biblical manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, as well as the early Church quoting the New Testament since 90 AD, there is simply no proof that Christianity was ever formally Islam or anything else for that matter.

 

So do adherents to religions other than Christianity go to hell because they chose unwisely ?

 

God is the one that knows our hearts. He is perfect justice--so I do believe those that are unable to exercise their will in a truly free fashion are not punished for the sins of others' or the circumstances to which they were born. We are responsible to do the very best we can with the facts of our existence--and to do so without making excuses. I believe the path is narrow, and we are called to heroic effort of faith--but that may look very different depending on the individual. God knows, and I trust God.

 

sure idols than to guidance. (judaism/islam)
then to diversion than to guidance. (christianity/islam) -jews don't accept jesus (pbuh)
then to diversion than to guidance. (islam) -christians and jews don't accept muhammed (saw)
apocalypse.

addressed many times in different forums.
and endless loop of people not being able
to present an actual proof from the qur'an,
and me answering them with evidence.

http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-15.html#post4970622
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-16.html#post4974397
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-7.html#post4952455
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-5.html#post4939734
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-6.html#post4943606
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/211228-origin-islam-arianism-6.html#post4943919

 

What are you talking about? Reading the creation account in Genesis, can you really come to the conclusion that there is but one God?

All you have provided are verses from the Koran. Sure, rock worship may not be in the Koran, but what does that say when you have 8th century Muslims worshiping rocks? Where they ex-pagans still clinging to there old beliefs, or was this part of the Muslim belief back then? Can you prove the Koran is the same now as it was back in those days? I think it's very possible. Muhammed's very first verses he penned where the satanic verses, because he believed he was being influenced by the devil. How did he know at after finishing e Koran that he still wasn't under the devil's influence?

Muhammed did come to know of Christianity through a Nestorian Monk by the name of Bahira. Muhammed Most likely took what he didn't like in the Bible and invented his own religion. The history of early Christianity proves that early Christians never altered the texts in such a manner that would change the meaning. I could provide you with quotes from the early Church fathers from the first centuries of Christianity, proving they are the same today as they where back then. What proof do you have that can substantiate is claim hat the Christians altered the texts?

 

What "rock worship" are you speaking of?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

There was a lot of diversity in early Christian writings.. apparently EVERYONE was interested in this Jesus of Nazareth.

 

here we go again.

proof.

provide proof.​

provide proof to support your claims.​

​

i have a feeling i will quote this many times...

are you really denying the alteration of bible?

i am a muslim so i might be misguiding you right?
then ask a bible scholar don't take it from me.

he will say that the texts were "written by man".
he will also tell you that bible is not the "literal word" of God.

ask him about the iznik council.
and how many bibles were around before the council,
and how "man" decided on the matters of belief, not God.

ask him about constantine.
and what was he doing with sun.

or hold on, don't ask the last one...
he might look at you unresponsive.

 

You are making an awful mistake.. You cannot destroy the legitimacy of Judaism or Christianity. .. unless you also wish to destroy the legitimacy of Islam.

 

au contraire margot.
the legitimacy is in tawhid.

i am not painting grays to black,
not changing any colors.

i am just exposing the cmyk values.

 

Oh well.. you're on your own.... If you have no regard for the beliefs of others, you will never be accorded the benefit of the doubt for your own.

 

The Koran was supposedly recited. It was NEVER written down by God--nor by Muhammad who couldn't write if he had wanted to--he was illiterate. Followers wrote it down--and the first copies were in a script with no vowels! Punctuation and editing also occurred to fix errors in early manuscripts of which multiple variants exist. Furthermore--the order of the surahs are all re-arranged.

For heaven's sake--if you're going to criticize the holy texts of other religions, at least don't be a hypocrite about it.

 

Huh.. What did God write?

 

fine.
i will stop.

but for the record,
i do have regard for other people's beliefs.
if i didn't i would be writing pages and pages and pages.
all i did was to point out.

apologies if i offended anyone.

regards.

 

You go on and on so much that I can't follow. I spent many years in the Arab world and they managed the animals for our Christmas passion plays.. I am grateful for that.

Grateful for the acceptance and respect we were afforded.

 

Yes, I am denying the alteration of the Bible. The Bible was obviously written by man, but inspired by God.

Try reading Edward Gibbon's Decline and fall of the Roman Empire.. In his account, Constantine convenes over the council, but does not get involved. He lets the Bishops decide. Besides, the Nicean Council had nothing to do with the formation of the canon. The reason for Constantine calling the Council in the first place was for the Church to figure out what to do with the Arianismm. At he time, half the empire has Christian, and such disunity between Catholic Christians and Arian Christians threatened the stability of the empire. It should also be noted that Gibon was NOT a Christian, but an atheist.

Constantine may of favored the Christian Religion, but until Emperor Theodosius, emperors where held the title of Pontifex Maximus, the Chief priest of the Pagan Religion Pontifex Maximus. This is a title that was incompatible with Christianity. Which is probally why he waited till the end of his life to get baptized.

 

yes muslims are more than just "nice" people.
unless you step on their toes about idolatry.

i don't think you associated islam with rock worship
when they managed your animals...

or told your neighbor that the qur'an contains satanic verses
or islam is borrowed from christianity.

even then i think most of them would choose to say:
"good bye now, be well".

me choosing to defend the truth against deluded theories
and pointing people for a research is nowhere near the
attitude i get.

be balanced yourself in your judgement.
otherwise;

be well...

 

that case is closed to me.
i see i am offending people.

i'll take your explanation if you are in peace with it.

may Allah guide you.

be well.

 

Actually, the Genesis hints at multiple gods by using the "US" word. Of course, the same "US" is also use to justify the trinity of one god with 3 aspects of himself.