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Originally Posted by roux-en-y
Your definition of life included three criteria to be met:
1) One must have consciousness
2) One must be able to survive on their own
3) One must not resemble a blob
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Originally Posted by offspring13";p="
I was just trying to make a point with those examples. Criteria #1 (consciousness) is pretty much all you need.
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Sounds like you’re back peddling.
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Originally Posted by roux-en-y
I believe life begins at fertilization.
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Originally Posted by offspring13";p="
Its alive no doubt...just as cancer is alive. Its not a living individual human being however. It has NO consciousness at conception.
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SO WHEN DOES IT HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS???!!! Quit dodging the question. If you are so convinced that abortion is not murder, then prove that it’s not.
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Originally Posted by roux-en-y
Why don’t you take the initiative and start organizing the study. Start calling some doctors and propose your idea. They will laugh and then discuss with you the medical, ethical, and financial issues with such a ridiculous experiment.
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Originally Posted by offspring13";p="
Not really some ridiculous study. If we are going to have laws on the subject, the government better darn sure have it stated when a life begins.
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Don’t you think that we should know that before any abortion? There’s that whole murder problem again.
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Originally Posted by roux-en-y
The consequence of abortion is that a human being ceases to live.
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Originally Posted by offspring13";p="
No, a fetus ceases continuing to grow into a human being.
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Come on, are you kidding. You just said that a fetus is “NO DOUBT ALIVE”. When a male and female have sex and an egg and sperm join to become a human embryo; this is a HUMAN embryo, which becomes a human fetus, which becomes a human infant, child, adolescent, adult, elderly human, etc. These are all stages of a HUMAN being. Two chickens mate to create a chicken fetus, and bears mate to create a bear fetus. It’s hilarious when you write “a fetus ceases to continue to grow”. What do you think causes that HUMAN fetus to stop growing? Well, a physician hacks it up into small pieces and sucks it out. There is no magic wand that mysteriously “stops the fetus from growing” as you so naively state.
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Originally Posted by roux-en-y
If only the consequences of an abortion were merely paying a $1 or $2 late fee.
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Originally Posted by offspring13";p="
Of course the scales and consequences are different. It was merely an example. In both situations, the person took care of their responsiblity (movie return/ pregnancy). You wish to take that responsiblity away.
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Apparently, you just believe in different levels or “responsibility”. Then what is your definition of “irresponsibility”, and give me an example of irresponsibility.
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Originally Posted by Wildbore";p="
Abortion is a lawful act if performed by a certified person, so yet again you have proven nothing.
It would sure be helpful if you can mention a part of the Bible.
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The initial statement pertained to murder as it relates to a human fetus. I think it’s interesting that 32 states have written laws that impose punishment or additional punishment on an individual that murders a pregnant woman or causes a pregnant woman to miscarry. It merely shows that many states believe that the fetus has significant worth. Enough to call it murder of another individual.
As far as the Bible goes. Start with these 2 verses, and I can post more if need be.
Psalm 139:4 emphasizes God's continuity of care, saying that this reaches back into the womb, and that God was concerned for the individual while his body was being formed. The Bible gives examples of this process in action as can be seen when God 'called' Isaiah and Jeremiah and John the Baptist before they were born.
Exodus 21:22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely (also interpreted as miscarriage) but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.
This situation reveals that a fine is the consequence for accidentally causing a woman to miscarry. The passage doesn’t elaborate on the topic of intentionally causing a woman to miscarry. I can only assume that the consequence would be much worse.
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Originally Posted by Wildbore";p="
Abortion is most certainly bad. I am simply saying the fetus is inside another person, it is that persons right to choose to pursue its development or abort it. Fundimental rights trump the criminal code, so suggesting that abortion is murder over and over will get you no where.
Cocaine use, rape and murder are no doubt bad and should be stopped.
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You and I are very different. If something is “most certainly bad”, I do not support it and I cannot sit idly by and watch it continue. It is not a fundamental right to kill another human being. You have already stated in previous posts that human life begins at conception. If so then abortion is murder.
So if abortion is “most certainly bad”, as you state, then how does it differ from cocaine use, rape, and murder. Which you also state is “no doubt, bad”?
Please explain why you think abortion is “most certainly bad”?
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Originally Posted by Wildbore";p="
In a perfect world, everyone would take responsibility for everything. If you want to pretend to live in that world go ahead, sit there and cry about it, you won't get very far. Abortion is a fundimental right, so what if its the easy way out, you cannot force people to do things you way.
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I live in an imperfect world, but strive towards perfection. We can’t be perfect but you should work in that direction vs. imperfection. Again, we are very different.
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Originally Posted by Roux-en-Y";p="
So you want to use abortion as a means of birth / population control? You are a proponent of irresponsibility and cowardice. How about this, if two people have sex and the woman gets pregnant…take care of your baby. Isn’t that a novel idea?
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Originally Posted by Wildbore";p="
You are the proponent of irresponsibility and cowardice. Not everyone that has a child can take care of it. If abortion were to be banned then there would be greater stress on social services to keep the children safe and comfortable until they can be adopted, if ever. If tax payers want to take responsibility for the consquences of banning abortion, then they should be willing to pay more taxes to support the greater amounts of children in social services. If you ask a right-winger though, they will take their tax cut over some child in social services any day.
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So allowing babies to live is a show of irresponsibility and cowardice? It doesn’t surprise me to see you post that. You obviously have a very low regard for human life. After all, you were the one who posted that you didn’t care if anything lives or dies, as long as it dies peacefully.
Again, we are very different. If paying higher taxes means that the murder of the innocent stops, then bring on the taxes. I agree, more babies will be a stress on the social services. I’m sure that will be recognized by their HR departments and additional employees will be added. It’s interesting your reasons for continued abortion were based on inconvenience of social workers and money. You mention nothing about the life of the baby.