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View Poll Results: Does the US Constitution contain the words "Seperation of Church and State"?
Yes 5 13.89%
No 30 83.33%
I'm not sure 1 2.78%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2008, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed)
Th Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
What does that letter have to do with the meaning of the Constitution?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2008, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
What does that letter have to do with the meaning of the Constitution?
Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Anderson View Post
To the OP: You are a victim of bogus propaganda. "Separation of Church and State" is a term used by Jefferson to elaborate on the first amendment.

From Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
Show us where the lawmakers ever indicated that the Constitution should be interpreted according to a term used by Jefferson in a letter more that a decade after the Constitution was adopted. Then I will show you where the lawmakers indicated that the words of the Constitution should be construed according to the common law rules of construction.

Quote:
Furthermore, Madison declared in an article to the Baptist Churches that: "Strongly guarded is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States"
Show us where the lawmakers ever indicated that the Constitution should be interpreted according an article James Madison wrote more than three decades after the Constitution was adopted.

Quote:
The intentions of the founding fathers are clear
The object of interpretation should be to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time they made the Constitution by signs most natural and probable. The most natural and probable signs of the lawmakers intentions are not letters written long after the instrument was adopted. The most natural and probable signs of the lawmakers will are spelled out in the "rules of construction."

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...even if those exact words are not present in the constitution itself.
You should learn the rules of construction and use them to interpret the Constitution rather than gather the meaning of the document from letters written by men whose views conform to your personal preferences.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom?
Explain to us why you believe the meaning of the Constitution should be interpreted according to the Virginia Religious Act.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 06:08 AM
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So basically, you don't like Jefferson, Madison, or the founding fathers, and you're angry that they felt a wall of separation between church and state was essential?

Are you seriously, and against all reason and facts, asserting that Jefferson did not believe in a separation of church and state? Jefferson once rewrote the entire bible omitting all of the miracles (such as the virgin birth and resurrection) and attempted to get people to follow his new form of christianity, sans the supernatural.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_bible

As much as you hate the fact that Jefferson was not a religious man and did not believe in a Personal God, it does nothing to change the fact that our most revered founding father was, at most, a vague spinozian sort of deist who strongly believed that religion has no place in government.

The entire argument against separation of church and state is monumental intellectual dishonesty and you should all be ashamed of yourselves for such medieval barbarity that all reasonable human beings have long since abandoned

Last edited by J.Anderson; 05-12-2008 at 06:10 AM.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 06:17 AM
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but from the church's side of the equation, there is much to lose should the state ever start dictating church affairs.
Yes, this is exactly right. Some of the church/state proponents should read up on the havoc caused by Henry VIII's decision to become the head of the church in England.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Anderson View Post
...they felt a wall of separation between church and state was essential...
I thought the felt it was necessary to exclude religion from the cognizance of the government.

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Jefferson did not believe in a separation of church and state
Everybody knows there's a clause in the Constitution that says the meaning of the document is to be gathered from the opinions of Thomas Jefferson.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 09:26 AM
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I think you're being unnecessarily obtuse, tongue-person. The reason amendments to the constitution exist was that the founding fathers could not foresee all possible ramifications of their actions in the future. Thus, the constitution has been amended 27 TIMES. The constitution was not created as a static document that would never change. It was created as a flexible document that could be changed as needed, thus the amendment process. So, the fact that the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" is not mentioned in the text of the constitution does not mean that it is irrelevant.

At the time that Jefferson wrote his letter to the Danbury Baptists, Baptists in Connecticut had written to him asking for his assistance. They were being forced financially support the "state" religion of connecticut, the congregationalists. So, in essence, government was imposing an involuntary religious tax on every resident of the state to support the state's religion, and people who resided in this state were forced to violate their own conscience because it was the law. It was this issue that motivated Jefferson's comments as well as the 2nd amendment.

A little historical information:


Quote:
The Times newspaper article says that the Danbury group "had sent Jefferson a letter of congratulations on his election, and the president 'labored over' a strategic reply..." according to Mr. Houston.

But the real background is more complex, and contains crucial information ignored or deleted by the Times. In fact, the letter from the Baptist group was a complaint that the Connecticut tax laws oppressed them, since they permitted communities to levy taxes for the support of an official, government-chosen religion. Connecticut was overwhelmingly Congregationalist, so Baptist and members of other religious groups (as well as nonreligious persons) were compelled to support the dominant faith through their tax money." In his seminal work, "JEFFERSON THE PRESIDENT: First Term, 1801-1805", the distinguished historian Dumas Malone noted that Jefferson "was honored as an apostle of religious liberty. Much of their address sounded like (Jefferson's) bill for establishing religious freedom in Virginia, and they hoped that the sentiments of their 'beloved President' would prevail so that 'hierarchy and tyranny' would vanish from the earth..."

Indeed, Jefferson had been the architect of the Act for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia which put an end there to the compulsory funding of so-called "established" churches. One often had to be a member of the "established" congregation in order to vote, own property or exercise other rights -- a fact that may account for the resistance of the select group of voters who constantly fought the disestablishment of these religious groups. The 1786 Act stated that "no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions of belief..."
Responding to the Danbury Baptists 16 years later, Jefferson wrote: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/rfa11.htm
So, the wall of separation is not just to protect the non-religious from the religious (though it is often spun that way). More often, it has served to protect minority religious groups, like the Danbury Baptist Association, from incursions of their civil liberties by more established majority religions. And, of course, to protect the religious organizations themselves from being dominated and dictated to by government heads.

It is also important to note that the founding fathers had the rich and abusive religious history of England, and England's state-sponsored persecutions of specific religious faiths, to draw upon in establishing the structure of social and religious life in the new United States.

My views on this subject changed a great deal when I lived in Utah for 10 years. When you are a person of a minority faith, overwhelmingly surrounded by a sea of people who believe differently, and when you are trying to raise your children in your own faith, then you will fight desperately to keep religion out of the schools and public events.
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Job 13:5 (New International Version)
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.

Last edited by catzmeow; 05-12-2008 at 09:44 AM.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 11:10 AM
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YES! I have vanquished my adversaries and silenced the stupid people! I rock.

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If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catzmeow View Post
the fact that the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" is not mentioned in the text of the constitution does not mean that it is irrelevant.
It is totally irrelevant to the ascertainment of the will of the legislators at the time they made the Constitution, unless the phrase is admissible under the "rules of construction" the lawmakers meant for us to use to ascertain the meaning of the words they used in the Constitution to express their will.

Quote:
At the time that Jefferson wrote his letter to the Danbury Baptists
Jefferson's letter was written over a decade after the Constitution was made. How could it possibly be one of the most probable and natural signs of the will of the lawmakers when they made the Constitution?
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