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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:27 PM
Leftovrer_crack Leftovrer_crack is offline
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Originally Posted by Demosthenes541 View Post
Hi, Im relatively new to this forum, and I would like to voice a strong opinion of mine. I think the only way to ever end war, and prevent the nukes from ever flying again, is a system of world government. Now just because I said that dont say "Ugh, that'll never happen" What I mean is some sort of government in which each individual nation keeps it's own independance, but they also answer to the world government, which will have branches set aside for different things. Just like a democracy, and for those of you against democracy, I tell you, it is the only way. So, what do you think?
but than 1 vote would mean nothing


amd the only way for there to not b a war would be in unified (just for the need to survive) anarchy
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2008, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by KOD View Post
This is a classic example of being willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because some corruption might rear its head doesn't mean that a one-world authority wouldn't be the best way to enforce equality and protect the environment. The authority must, however, be immune from the whimsical wishes of the populace in order to function objectively. This excludes old-fashioned romantic notions of freedom and democracy.
And so who determines just what are the "whimsical wishes of the populace?"

The only way would be possible is letting a computer control the populace. But wait, since computers are programmed by people, who are fallible, that wouldn't work either.

You live in fantasyland if you think something like that is possible. How do you propose to eliminate human greed, passion, jealousy, pride, laziness apathy and all the other things that contribute to the human condition?

And what about the people who don't want it? Are you going to MAKE them capitulate? Why that sounds a lot like oppression to me? What will happen to the people who criticize your perfect one world government? Will they be done away with in the night?
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by KOD View Post
You describe a world government without means to enforce its laws. With the enforcement rescources of the United States, Britian, and others having surrendered their sovereignty to the central government, it would have all the powers of enforcement necessary to prevent all the scenerios you fear.
And this enforcement you describe, of course, presumes war.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by will2power View Post
And what about the people who don't want it? Are you going to MAKE them capitulate? Why that sounds a lot like oppression to me?
No, it sounds like lawful enforcement of laws just like the ones we have now..............tax enforcement, mandatory primary education, universal healthcare, environmental safety enforcement, etc, etc, .............etc.
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What will happen to the people who criticize your perfect one world government? Will they be done away with in the night?
That will not be necessary. They are currently being dealt with by our candidates and media campaign. Just look at the support we've ginned up for the universal healthcare and environmental awareness I mentioned above. Don't worry about getting the masses on board...............we have proven our ability to lead them in the direction of their own best interest.

You people need to get over your passion for out-dated concepts of liberty that have been gone for a generation, and embrace the modern world of efficient provision for all.
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Old 04-30-2008, 05:28 AM
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You people need to get over your passion for out-dated concepts of liberty that have been gone for a generation, and embrace the modern world of efficient provision for all.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 03:33 AM
Ronin-Talgar Ronin-Talgar is online now
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Originally Posted by KOD
Interesting. Did you think that these (4) things have been instituted by popular vote? No...........they have been provided through mandate by our courts' judges (primarily appointed judges) with no regard for democratic opinion. Democracy is an outdated concept whose time has come and gone. Real progress can only be provided by central directive.
Eh even if that was true, those courts are part of a democratic framework. Working just fine. The Autocracy you proscribe has failed so many times, its just silly.

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That would only be true if you ignored the whole of human history. In your case, Australia is protected somewhat by it's geographic isolation. But even that will not be sufficient protection after a time, or are you forgetting World War II. You can't sit there and honestly say that everyone in Australia is happy and contented. No country could lay claim to that. It just doesn't exist.
WWII is my prime example. Ok so yeah obvioulsy some ideologies can't co-exist, and then we get war. Note whats happened to Europe now- old wounds heal, new idenities form. Hurray and all that. And while no ofcourse happiness is not universal here, I note that I haven't been conscripted to march against Queensland for their boutiful banana stocks, or had my government bomb Tasmania for wanting to declare independance (actually apparently WA has a bit of that [the independance not the bombing] but we still loves 'em.

If we hadn't federated though, what devisions would have arrisen over 100 years? Wars been fought, areas invaded perhaps? We'd be in worse shape, no question.

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You're right in saying that ideologies can live together, if they choose to but different ideologies choose not to. It doesn't matter what society you're talking about there are always groups that are dissatisfied with it, and there are always other places not as successful or prosperous that will want to blame you for it. Therein lies the flaw in the original statement.
A path to change open to such people is non-violent, and therefore that is a well tread path- if we were seperate countries it'd simply be a bloody battle over our disagreements instead. At worse they become criminals, instead of dictators.

Well a large section of ideologies can then- essentially any that places a democratic ideology firmly in charge. Empiricism has seen enemies join in lasting peace, I'm confident it will continue as such. Hopefully with less war as precursor though.

Last edited by Ronin-Talgar; 05-08-2008 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KOD View Post
This is a classic example of being willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because some corruption might rear its head doesn't mean that a one-world authority wouldn't be the best way to enforce equality and protect the environment. The authority must, however, be immune from the whimsical wishes of the populace in order to function objectively. This excludes old-fashioned romantic notions of freedom and democracy.
Mmm, certainly to suggest that governance is bad because of corruption ignores all teh good that unity can acheive. KOD, there is already an element of that shield from whimsy in democracy- set terms. You essentially have your way for 4 or so years (with sensible guidleines and overwatch) to get things done. In a democracy that Corruption you mention can be rid of through election; in autocracy, violence- be it assasination coup or civil war.

Can you stop calling it old-fashioned; it really is all the rage. Autocracy on the other hand, so parse...par-se? I need an accent don't I?

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Originally Posted by Matticus77
Any government that supports freedom and peace is best. Even a worldy government, as long as it doesn't need extreme weapons and laws removing our ability to defend ourselves wasn't it's way of keeping order.

A government that would somehow make everyone be peaceful and respectful would be great. A government locking us up and keeping peace by force would have errs and flaws that would lead to more force being needed. It sounds great but can't happen because we are human.
We keep doing it Matticus, getting larger group idenities- just one step to go. Its not without precendant, this causeing peace thing- every government is testament to it. We stop fighting each other because we travel/trade/communicate better as one nation- and our leaders no-longer havea vested interest in keeping us divided, and have no ability to dehumanise an opponent people- a neccassary precursor to war.

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I would think it would be worse if there was just one world government that have random flaws like the governments that are in our world today because there wouldn't be other choices, voices, or ideas to be heard against it.
Consider- todays options, limited media, many languages, constant threat of war- you really think you're getting exposed to as many ideas as you would if there were no borders?

Keep in mind what I and the OP are advocating is a Democratic world government- ideas can be debated without fear(mostly) and change without violence in such a state- thats what leads to options. In truth, you'd have the entire world to bounce ideas off, to be inspired by.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar View Post
KOD, there is already an element of that shield from whimsy in democracy- set terms. You essentially have your way for 4 or so years (with sensible guidleines and overwatch) to get things done.
There ya go yielding to some ethereal "sensible guidlines and overwatch." Who decides when to enforce "sensible guidelines and overwatch" over your democratically chosen 4-year wonders?
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Keep in mind what I and the OP are advocating is a Democratic world government- ideas can be debated without fear(mostly) and change without violence in such a state- thats what leads to options. In truth, you'd have the entire world to bounce ideas off, to be inspired by.
It seems like you are spending too much time pondering self-appointed philosophers of the blogishere. You sound like a garden-variety right-winger. Next, you'll be claiming to support freedom of choice for one's healthcare. We've come too far in our transition from the old America to a progressive state to allow that to remain the norm.

What if your world "democracy" simply votes out community in favor of secession back to individual sovereign nations? What if they were free to simply choose to exist on their own apart from the needs of the world, making their own decisions based on their 'local' situations and needs? You really do sound like a Individualist Conservative.

Last edited by KOD; 05-08-2008 at 05:10 AM.
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