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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Chesby05 View Post
It doesn't happen five days after conception.
I'll believe the National Institutes of Health and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists over your website any day.
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by will2power View Post
The question is a moot one.
I agree 100%. The conditions for life are actually just a construction of the human mind and the gray areas are up for debate.
We may as well be asking if a tuatara is really a lizard.

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Originally Posted by will2power View Post
Rather than arguing what cannot be agreed upon by the scientific community, you should instead focus your attention towards something that might actually be effective in satisfying both parties.

Right to lifers are mad because they believe that the embryo has no protections under the law, essentially.

Pro Choice is mad because no woman wants to be forced by the state to carry a child to term. They feel what is being asked of them is invasive and Orwellian.

You have to look for an answer that is going to satisfy both groups, instead of pointless debate on who is right. Set aside the argument for a moment and think about it. What would actually make both sides happy?.
I think you are on the right track here. But I really don't see a plausible way to make both sides happy. I'd settle for a way to get both sides to argue civilly, understanding each other's points rather than yelling at one another.

My position is similar to Hillary Clinton's on this issue: the "safe and rare" argument. I think abortion is somewhat barbaric but there are enough circumstances to justify it to make attempts to stop it sometimes barbaric.
But furthermore I don't think anything good can come from illegalizing abortion. Like other widespread problems of its nature, all this does is makes a black market and creates additional problems.
It is better to focus on studying WHY abortions take place. Few (if any) women will callously have abortions with no bad feelings. There are social forces that make this ugly option seem good or make alternatives seem inaccessible.
First step is to look at demographics and try to find common denominators.


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Step with me into the what if machine for a moment... What if we expended our efforts into devising a way to nurture an embryo artificially to term? Or in other instances, a means to take that living embryo and implant it into a mother that cannot produce a fertile egg, or a mother who wants to have a child without a husband, or a volunteer? The rights of the embryo are protected, and at the same time the mother is absolved of her parental obligaition as well as the physical discomforts of pregnancy? Take it a step further and make a system where the genetic heritage of the child is kept on file devoid of any parenting information so that the child can have accurate medical care without exposing the parentage.
That might be nice... but we can't just hope for scientific development as a proxy for policy. And once this science does come forth (which it may very well) we'll have our hands full with other legal questions as this will surely not be the only application.

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How much further along would we be in this, if we stopped trying to win an argument, and concentrated more on solving the problem? You're not going to get anywhere in trying to force your views--whatever they are, on someone who doesn't share them. It doesn't have to be either or... Devote your effort to the solution and not the continuing argument....
Again, I think you're on the right track... but you do have to consider that the pro-life and pro-choice forces that are involved are arguing based on very black-and-white principles: right of life and right of authority over body. Neither is likely to want compromise.
It really is mostly the people in the middle (who outnumber the activists, but do not care as much) who are the only hope for any kind of compromise.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
I'll believe the National Institutes of Health and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists over your website any day.
That's websiteS. But sure - you go for it! You're a man, right? You'll never be pregnant? So what you believe is irrelevant.

What actually happens is what is relevant. I am pregnant. I see medical specialists on an almost weekly basis. I also work in medicine. In fact, one of my employers is a neonatologist. Oh yeah, my uncle is a celebrated fertility specialist.

I know more than you about it. Pretty simple, really.

We could get into the nitty gritty, but, essentially, implantation doesn't happen over one day. It's a period of time and it happens in three phases: apposition, adhesion and the embedding in the endometrium. The embedding in the endometrium (the lining of the uterus) takes place about two weeks after conception, which is the fourth gestational week of pregnancy. The blastocyst is not fully implanted into the uterus until this time.

This is when pregnancy is considered to have `begun'.
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Old 05-08-2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Chesby05 View Post
And to answer the question about whether or not you would even know you are pregnant within five days. I did. I knew the second I conceived. I've known quite a few women that has happened for. Beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Was this something you felt physically, or just an emotional feeling, like intuition?
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 05:16 PM
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Both. I felt different physically, and I also just `knew'. It's really very hard to explain!
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chesby05 View Post
Both. I felt different physically, and I also just `knew'. It's really very hard to explain!
I could imagine that feeling. But I have heard you say you had not planned to fall pregnant? So how did you feel when you 'felt' you were pregnant?
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 05:57 PM
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Pretty happy, actually. I went through a whole gamut though.

But because I knew the second I conceived, I'd actually had time to prepare myself for the idea of it before I had it confirmed with a test. Regardless, seeing that second blue line there made my mouth dry and my heart start palpitating. But I think that's what would happen regardless of planning or not. It's a really big deal!

I went through a lot of emotions in the first 14 weeks. Fear was there, for sure. But also excitement and pride, and happiness, and disbelief. There was also resentment (you really don't feel very good in the first trimester), and a feeling of rejection - like I had something growing inside me that I didn't want and that can feel very invasive. Those feelings didn't last but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have them.

You also have a sense of regret because you know that pretty soon your life is never, ever going to be the same, and your freedom and your relationship with the man you love is going to change forever. But then you have that anticipation of the love and joy and satisfaction and reward that it will bring - along with fear of the responsibility, tiredness, difficulties and worry of being a parent.

I think, though, the biggest thing you feel is anxiety over your pregnancy. Because you're not really in the `safe' zone until 12 weeks - so the weeks leading up to that are quite apprehensive. It's funny how even for something that is unplanned, once you make that decision to go ahead (and really, there was no decision for us in it at all) you are immediately a parent, you are immediately attached to that blastocyst (lol) and you immediately fear that you might lose it.

I had some very severe implantation pain at around the four - five-week mark, and my GP actually thought it might be an ectopic pregnancy. I'd known I was pregnant for about 10 days, and I cried all the way to the ultrasound.

Having said that, I also knew with an absolutely unshakeable belief that nothing was going to go wrong, that it wasn't ectopic, that I wasn't going to miscarry and that everything would be fine. You could call that the excess of oestrogen, or just a sixth sense, or wishful thinking. But I knew. I can't explain it.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2008, 01:25 PM
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Oh yeah, my uncle is a celebrated fertility specialist.
A "celebrated" specialist ; well dang, that settles that. Everyone knows that celebrated specialists know far more than leading science organizations.
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Old 05-11-2008, 04:52 PM
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Lol. If you actually pay attention to any of my posts you might find that I am in acccordance with your `leading science organisation'. But are the words a little bit too big for you to understand?
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Chesby05 View Post
Lol. If you actually pay attention to any of my posts you might find that I am in acccordance with your `leading science organisation'. But are the words a little bit too big for you to understand?
Be that as it may, very few people respect unverifiable sources. If you cite someone you know personally, you should be prepared for it to not be taken as fact.
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