Originally Posted by justabubba";p=&quot

while i strongly disagree with oilguy's op, i do think there are some underlying issues which are common to those who do not find success.
very often, it is bad luck ... the wrong womb, the wrong location to practice one's unique skills, medical misfortune, etc. however, too often the potential exists but is just not developed. here is where oily and i begin to converge in our thinking: sometimes one's failure/impoverishment is attributable to nothing other than a lack of ambition, or the lack of discipline that allows one to build toward success by hitting a series of singles rather than always swinging for the home run for the quick, easy victory. but i do think it is wrong to castigate all who are poor as being in that circumstance only because they made wrong choices; for many, possibly most, that is a wrong attribution. as has been said already, (almost) no one (other than religious orders) makes a conscious choice to remain impoverished.
identifying problems can be relatively easy; finding solutions requires heavy lifting.
we subsidize negative behaviors in many ways ... frequently from the misuse of that which was provided with good intent. we offer rent, food, medical - general living subsidies to unmarried women of low economic means who have children. we do that because our society recognizes a need to care for that child. but that also makes being an unmarried mother to now essentially be a compensated occupation, and eliminates the need to pursue self sufficiency through education, work, and/or self-employment. it eliminates the stigma of out of wedlock pregnancy. marriage is disincentivized as it must be avoided to continue to receive the subsidy (at full level). that the baby father cannot marry the mother or officially reside in the subsidized home does not mean he cannot stay there, alot. so, now the single guys have a means of support which does not require a job. and we increase the negative outcomes by increasing the amount of subsidy with the birth of each additional illegitimate child.
now we have children being raised by older children/young adults, who are not responsible enough to be self reliant. if they are the offspring of parents from the same circumstance then they are living the life they know. its a cycle of behavior in our society and i have found no mechanism that is being attempted to end it ... we are now into our third and fourth generations. by and large we learn to be a parent based on how our parents raised us as children. what chance does this youngest generation have to break out of the cycle of poverty where all they know to depend on for their future is whatever is sent in the form of a welfare check? little learning is required to cash a check so why value an education ... especially when attaining an education is so difficult to earn and there is no one in the childrens' lives explaining that what is most precious is also often the most hard won. but again, these kids are being raised by young adults who do not value education and parents who do not make sure their child attends a quality school, or has the necessary supplies, rest, nutrition and especially the follow-up to make sure the child is behaving and performing properly in school.
that child has few role models other than the thug on the corner selling crack, driving a pimped out ride while wearing the latest brand of fashionable shoes. possibly it is that newly rich rapper who engages in the abberant behavior he celebrates in his music. or maybe his role model is a professional athelete. what miniscule portion of that population is going to make it to the pros or hit it rich in the music industry? there is no one in that kid's life to explain the ways of success. seems like oily was lost too, until he became wise enough to ask a successful man to explain the keys to success. we need to find a way to reach these vulnerable kids to teach them to succeed. before we can do that we must convince them that the American dream IS within their reach, too. not sure that is happening very often these days.
justabubba [leaves with soapbox]