Actually...

In the previous in THIS string on this I argued with Logic ...

then someone said why should we take your word [alone]!

So then I posted Links.. and it's "Mr Cut and Paste".

And just above I explained (No Cut and Paste) the bogus "23% Inclusive" was really 30% as most people Pay and Understand Sales Tax NOW.

To which you had no reply EITHER.

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Actually I did, in very simple math. But clearly it was too much for you to handle. I'll try again for anyone that's still lagging behind.

The Fair Tax is INCLUSIVE. Which means it's INCLUDED in the price.

$100 is on the price tag. You pay $100. The company that sold you the item you purchased at $100, pays $23 in tax and keeps $77 in profit.

You can keep misrepresenting this if you want, but this picture should be pretty clear to the rest of those in the peanut gallery. Not sure I can make this any more simple for you.

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OK, let's call it a 30% sales tax.

It doesn't change anything.

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"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.

--Murray Rothbard

Actually a cache of Harvard economists did not come up with the 23% rate.

I don't know where you get your facts from. I think I have an idea.

The Fair Tax was started up by a group of rich Houstonites using a slick ad campaign repackaging a national sales tax.

http://www3.brookings.edu/articles/1...axes_gale.aspx , this shows that the Scam increases the tax burden on the middle class while cutting taxes on the Wealthy Elites.

The difference between a National Sales Tax and the Fair Tax Scam is that the Scam promises to eliminate more instances of taxation while offering big welfare payouts with no reduction in Federal Tax Revenue. That’s quite a trick.

You'd be more helpful if you knew what you were talking about instead arguing by false authority (harvard cache).

The Fair Tax is a scam run by the wealthy for the wealthy and it taps into the anti-IRS/tax sentiment held (in the extreme) by extremely selfish people.

I am for a strict graded income tax. But politics has its players and exceptions are always made.

I am not against people keeping more their money. But as an adult, I admit that there are bills to be paid by our government and superficial selfishness to deny that reality in favor of keeping "more of my money" is a loser.

Prebate checks are offered under some Fair Tax proposals to eliminate or greatly reduce the consumption taxes paid by the poor and lower middle class. They will cost the gov. btn 500 and 700 billion dollars and no one seems to know how to pay for them. Besides, it's not a good idea to totally eliminate the tax payments of any class completely...it disenfranchises that class. Even the working poor pay payroll taxes.

The IRS and Department of Labor enforce various tax laws and regs. The Fair Tax people live under the illusion that tax collection, enforcement and accountability will magically happen and that the IRS can be scrapped. That tells me right there that these are not serious people.

Call it 30% b/c it is, at least, 30%. And it shows that the Huckabee Fair Taxers were liars from the gitgo.

A Fair Tax Proposal introduced to Congress as H.R. 25 and Senate Bill 25 shows that "The tax rate is not 23%. The Tax Bill, Sec. 2 (a) (5): ". . . `gross payments´ means payments for taxable property or services, including Federal taxes imposed by this title." and Sec. 101 (b) (1): ". . . the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments . . ." In Mathematical modeling "including" means add, "is" means equal, and "of" means multiply. Let X be the "rate of tax", then X is 23% of gross payments. X = .23 multiplied by price plus tax. Let price be 1, then "rate of tax" and "tax" will be the same number. Therefore: X = (.23) (1 + X). Answer: X = .30. The tax rate is 30%.
http://www.fair-tax.org

Deception is not a good foundation for tax policy. It's inline with what Bush did, lying about his tax program, but that's not good for America.

I agree, deception is not a good foundation for tax policy.

Ever heard of withholding?

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"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.

--Murray Rothbard

Absolutely. What does that have to do with the tax rate deceptions pushed by the FairTax crowd?

Hey, interesting thread!

I strongly oppose the fair tax because it increases poverty. Poverty is not only morally wrong, it is devastating to the economy.

The irony is that lowering taxes for the lowest income classes in a society actually increases poverty. Swedish sociologist Walter Korpi calls it the redistribution paradox (http://www.jstor.org/pss/2657333). I'll try to describe it in short terms.

Its all about how welfare services are financed. Taxes decrease poverty because they benefit the poor while private welfare benefits the wealthy. The poverty reducing effect of a large welfare state is larger then the effect of lowering taxes for the underclass. As i see it there are four main reaqsons for this.

1. Political power. Taxing the entire workforce creates solidarity between the middle and underclass, enabling a political alliance strong enough to create a strong welfare society which in turn enables the points below.

2. Financing welfare. While the wealthy pay more taxes per person, they are few in numbers compared to the middle and underclass. The under and middle classes are as a group a much larger source of income for a welfare state. Taxing them is essential if you want to be able to fight poverty.

3. Economics. Many welfare services become cheaper if they are produced at a large scale. Some examples are transportation, healthcare, security and infrastructure. An effectinve welfare state helps prevent your tax money is wasted.

4. Poverty hurts the economy. An economy where people are healthy and socially secure enables more economic efficiency in the form of a more flexible, educated and flexible labour market (Happy workers).

Its not really about right and wrong. Its a question of who benefits from what. The rich benefit from a politically weak under and middle class. The "fair" tax achives that. The rest of us benefit from political solidarity for universal welfare. universal taxation is crucial for universal welfare.

Guess what else is wrong, stealing! Your entire argument is based on one premise: "the poor will lose out because they won't be stealing as much."

Also, the US has more poverty than Sweden, agreed? Guess who has the better economy and better standard of living.

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"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.

--Murray Rothbard