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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:41 PM
BigRed BigRed is offline
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Originally Posted by CCDMS View Post
This is why the US is a democratic republic. The founders understood people were self interested, that's why its not a true democracy. If it were then the masses would have the power and minority groups would have no voice.
The minority has a voice I suppose.

But it isn't very loud.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:45 PM
CCDMS CCDMS is offline
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agreed, but at least that was the idea, or so my understanding goes
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2008, 11:59 PM
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This is why the US is a democratic republic. The founders understood people were self interested, that's why its not a true democracy. If it were then the masses would have the power and minority groups would have no voice.
That is not why we're a democratic republic. The founders understood that people were stupid, too. They knew that the common person would not make good decisions on complex economic issues.

I suppose the minority groups benefit from lobbyist groups?
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:05 AM
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Probably, but still a net gain for the government.
You didn't understand a word I said.
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Rich people aren't suddenly going to decide to stop being rich to flaunt the government. Their only real option is to travel abroad, but a lot of our peers are already more socialistic than we are.
I hear tropical Islands are quite nice.
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And since Obama is targeting the merely upper class in addition to the truly rich many won't be able to move away from their jobs anyway.
Ah, entrapment. So do these rich people have the same constitutional rights as common folk? Liberty in particular. Oh wait, liberals redefined liberty. I forgot.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
You didn't understand a word I said.
I hear tropical Islands are quite nice.
Ah, entrapment. So do these rich people have the same constitutional rights as common folk? Liberty in particular. Oh wait, liberals redefined liberty. I forgot.
If we truly live in a democracy then the political power of an entirely must be equal, in representative democracies this 'equality' is apportioned through universal suffrage. The main downfall of combining capitalism with democracy is that people can supplement their own political power through use of monetary means, thus making the state somewhat undemocratic.

Because it is impossible to distinguish the political from the economic, it is usually the case that capitalist elites come to power, and their economic interests and reflected in the parties and their policies.

That is what has happened to America, I think you'll find that those of us on the Left view 'liberty' in a form mature and meaningful way, that an individual cannot be truly free until he is free of economic dependence, and dependence on other individuals to survive, to feed his family etc. In short, in need freedom is latent.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-14-2008, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by G_Haile12 View Post
If we truly live in a democracy then the political power of an entirely must be equal, in representative democracies this 'equality' is apportioned through universal suffrage. The main downfall of combining capitalism with democracy is that people can supplement their own political power through use of monetary means, thus making the state somewhat undemocratic.

Because it is impossible to distinguish the political from the economic, it is usually the case that capitalist elites come to power, and their economic interests and reflected in the parties and their policies.

That is what has happened to America, I think you'll find that those of us on the Left view 'liberty' in a form mature and meaningful way, that an individual cannot be truly free until he is free of economic dependence, and dependence on other individuals to survive, to feed his family etc. In short, in need freedom is latent.
So you maturely don't understand the difference between politics and economics. Understood. You really didn't have to say that, I could tell that already.

The problem with liberals is not their maturity, it's their failures. Their failures affect other people. Example: ethanol - which in itself is a failure - has created a global famine.
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