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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Pfaff View Post
To JLB,

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the way argumentation works. I don't say this to be mean. The fact is, most people are unfamiliar. The most basic form is known as Toulmin's model. It has three components: a claim, grounds, and a warrant. The claim is the assertion, the grounds is the evidence, and the warrant is the reasoning or logic behind the argument. Without at least a claim and a warrant, you don't have any argument, you only have a warrant-less claim.

You say, Hamas endorsed Obama. Here, we kind of have the grounds, but no claim and no warrant. You imply an argument, but never make one.

This is problematic, because I am then forced to assume your argument. In this case, I assume you mean that since Hamas has endorsed Obama, that must mean that Obama is friendly to terrorists. However, we still have no warrant, so I don't know what the implications of this argument are, nor do I know how you intended it to be applied.

Again, I assume that you mean that Obama is somehow appealing to terrorists, thus causing them to want to endorse him. I imagine grounds you may give here is that he is a Muslim, except that he isn't a Muslim. You are an Atheist, as I recall reading elsewhere, yet you live in a country that is Protestant. Should I then assume that when you tell me that you are Atheist, you actually have a hidden agenda, and actually believe in the most radical form of Protestant teachings? Well, you must be a Baptist, since you are clearly hiding your true faith, which we know must be your true faith, because after all, you are an American, and Americans are protestants.

Perhaps you already see the flaws in such logic. Furthermore, it is incredibly ethnocentric to assume that all Muslims are terrorists. Even if Obama were a Muslim, which he isn't, but assuming he were, why does that suddenly make him pro-terrorist?

Additionally, isn't your argument kind of putting the cart before the horse? Why does it necessarily mean that if one group endorses an individual, then the individual must also endorse the group. All cats are mammals, therefore all mammals are cats, right?

With you're rhetoric, you are engaging in Hobbesian Scare Tactics, otherwise know as Appeals to Fear, or Fear-mongering. Terrorists are bad! Look, they endorse Obama. Obama is bad! You don't like terrorists, don't vote for Obama!

But finally, answer me this: why is the act of Hamas endorsing Obama a bad thing? Don't say that it proves he is really a Muslim, because that will only make you look more ethnocentric. You would then need to convincingly argue that being a Muslim is bad from a perspective beyond appeals to fear. I await your reply.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with common sense and logic.

You can tell a great deal about a man by who his friends are, and so far Obama surrounds himself with racists, communists, former terrorists, and at least a three-deep bench of crazy spiritual advisors that should be locked up in Bellevue.

This is not a debate, but a lesson from me to you, and the rest.

I will debate you when you, or anyone else offers something that refutes the facts I give you. So far that has not happened.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JLB View Post
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with common sense and logic.

You can tell a great deal about a man by who his friends are, and so far Obama surrounds himself with racists, communists, former terrorists, and at least a three-deep bench of crazy spiritual advisors that should be locked up in Bellevue.

This is not a debate, but a lesson from me to you, and the rest.

I will debate you when you, or anyone else offers something that refutes the facts I give you. So far that has not happened.
Let's stick to the terrorism part first. We can move on from there in other posts.

I only began posting today, and I do not care to look through every single post you may have made to find your earlier arguments, so please, entertain me, or direct me to those compelling arguments, because thus far, I have not seen them.

To convince me that Obama is a friend to terrorists, you need to convincingly argue that he is in fact a friend of terrorists. Just because Hamas endorsed him, doesn't mean they are friends. Give me the proof that they are friends.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pfaff View Post
Let's stick to the terrorism part first. We can move on from there in other posts.

I only began posting today, and I do not care to look through every single post you may have made to find your earlier arguments, so please, entertain me, or direct me to those compelling arguments, because thus far, I have not seen them.

You will find 24,000 of them at Political Crossfire, and another 16,000 at Glock Talk.

Google is your friend, but this thread from the archives may shed some light:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/fo...verthrown.html


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Originally Posted by Pfaff View Post
To convince me that Obama is a friend to terrorists, you need to convincingly argue that he is in fact a friend of terrorists. Just because Hamas endorsed him, doesn't mean they are friends. Give me the proof that they are friends.

Obama having dinner with his friend, the terrorist Rashid Khalidi, former PLO advisor to Yasser Arafat.


Obama funneled $70,000 to Khaladi from his board he served on with Weatherman Terrorist William Ayers.


Quote:
A special tribute came from Khalidi’s friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama. Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi’s wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.

His many talks with the Khalidis, Obama said, had been “consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It’s for that reason that I’m hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation — a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid’s dinner table,” but around “this entire world.”


At Khalidi’s 2003 farewell party…a young Palestinian American recited a poem accusing the Israeli government of terrorism in its treatment of Palestinians and sharply criticizing U.S. support of Israel. If Palestinians cannot secure their own land, she said, “then you will never see a day of peace.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...459,full.story
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JLB View Post
You will find 24,000 of them at Political Crossfire, and another 16,000 at Glock Talk.

Google is your friend, but this thread from the archives may shed some light:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/fo...verthrown.html





Obama having dinner with his friend, the terrorist Rashid Khalidi, former PLO advisor to Yasser Arafat.


Obama funneled $70,000 to Khaladi from his board he served on with Weatherman Terrorist William Ayers.
Alright, I see your points. Let's begin with Khalidi.

You are seriously distorting the facts. It took a lot of research, but I have finally figured out what happened. You see, it took some time, because Obama never gave Khalidi $70,000. He donated that money to the Arab American Action Network, not the PLO nor to Khalidi. If that money had in fact gone to the PLO, then your argument would have weight. The AAAN is an organization that is designed to provide assistance to Arab-Americans living in Chicago. I fail to see how this is funding or assisting terrorists. I repeat, the AAAN is an organization designed to help Americans in America.

Khalidi founded the organization, but is no longer a part of it. The organization is meant to help people. Who cares who it was founded by? The money doesn't go to terrorists. Period.

Obama did not funnel money to Khalidi. Even your own article from the LA Times doesn't say this. The grant went to a social services group, not to Mona Khalidi. That social services group is the AAAN, which again, is an organization that helps people in the US, not terrorists.

But wait, you say, Khalidi is a known terrorist. He has ties to the PLO, thus showing that Obama has friends who are terrorists. I have thus far found no hard evidence that proves that he was part of the people that engaged in terrorist activities back in the 70's. He was certainly never an advisor to Arafat, as you claim. It is true that he is pro-Palestine, but that doesn't mean he was part of the PLO. Although the PLO has certainly engaged in terrorist activities, at the same time, the PLO does also do some good things as well. Khalidi lauded them because they were pro-Palestine, like he is, but no where does it say that he lauded how they achieved their goals. The only evidence that he was even part of the PLO is conjecture. Saying the conjecture is the summation of evidence is tantamount to conspiracy theory. If you have hard evidence, I would enjoy reading it.

Next, Ayers. But first, the board you mention is the Woods Fund. Do you even know what it was created to do? It is designed to help build communities in Chicago, in particular to create affordable housing for needy families. You make it sound like it's some shady organization that doles out money to terrorists. It simply doesn't, unless you are arguing that needy families in Chicago are terrorists.
But you're right on one point, Ayers was a member of the board, but so what? It's never been proven that Ayers engaged in terrorism, and beyond that, it was 40 years ago. You make it seem like Khalidi and Ayers are currently active terrorists, but they aren't. You're going to chastise Obama for trying to help build communities for the needy. You would rather Obama, on mere speculation and conjecture, and no solid evidence reject entirely an opportunity to help people? If the evidence linking Ayers and Khalidi to terrorism were stronger, and Obama were associating more frequently with them, you're argument would make more sense. If Obama had helped fund terrorism, it would make more sense. But Obama didn't. He helped fund creating homes for needy families.

It is true that Obama wants to assist people in Palestine. That is because many people in Palestine are in very poor conditions. Vis-a-vis, he wants to help the poor. What's wrong with that? Is it the fact that they are Arab that bothers you? Yes, Khalidi also wants to help the people in Palestine. Khalidi and Obama spoke on a few occasions, and Khalidi educated Obama on the plight of people in Palestine. Khalidi is an intelligent man, and has insight. Obama was listening to the insight. But Khalidi is still not a proven terrorist, so Obama having talked to him doesn't make him an associate to terrorists. Your so-called evidence that he is is mere conjecture.

Your links to Ayers and Khalidi are poor at best, and at worst, deceptive tactics to create phantom scandals that poison the minds of people that only look at headlines, but don't read or research the topics.

Finally, you directly claimed that Obama funneled money to Khalidi, but that is false. You claimed that Khalidi was an advisor to Arafat: false.

I am open to being proven wrong, so if you have hard evidence, please present it. I have thus far been unable to find it.
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So strong is this propensity of [humanity] to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts -James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 10

James Madison for President -White Fox
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2008, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunni Man View Post
Hamas is a legal political party of the Palestinian people. They won several seats in a free democratic election.
Here is an excellent example of the typical Obama supporter. They are willing to defend terrorist in order to defend their guy - who we all know by know also defends them and favors the muslims' right to destroy Israel.

Last edited by Raeka; 06-18-2008 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:11 AM
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Here is an excellent example of the typical Obama supporter. They are willing to defend terrorist in order to defend their guy - who we all know by know also defends them and favors the muslims' right to destroy Israel.
Raeka, have you evidence on any post where I said that I support Obama?

So quit making things up!

I have NEVER endorsed or said to vote for Obama.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:24 AM
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Raeka, have you evidence on any post where I said that I support Obama?

So quit making things up!

I have NEVER endorsed or said to vote for Obama.
With those views you have who else could you be supporting?!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2008, 08:26 AM
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With those views you have who else could you be supporting?!
Hillary Clinton!!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2008, 09:54 AM
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Hillary Clinton!!
yeah, right.
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