U.S. stance on Kosovo is against intl. law - Page 16

Sadistic-Savior · #**151** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

I know that you can differ facts from form. If one man (that being the "the special representative of UN for Kosovo") can annul any act of a government or a parliament, that is not a government nor a parliament. You know that.

What evidence are you using to prove that the UN can annul any act passed by the Kosovar government? Wikipedia did not claim that.

If the UN attempts to annul a Kosovo act, and Kosovo ignores them, what will the UN do about it? What can they even "legally" do about it? Please cite your source as well.

I don't recognize the UN as having authority over any democracy. Not the US, not Serbia, and not Kosovo. The UN does not get the final say on who is and is not sovereign. If they did, Saddam's government would still be recongized by them as the official rulers of Iraq.

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This is Kosovo's Protection Corps - formed by NATO. NATO is supporting terrorists, and Kosovo is just a failed NATO experiment of a country.

How has it failed? They have already held elections.

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The claim of a " terrorist " hotbed in Kosova is pathetic. Real intellectual leaders have visited and worked there and it should not come as a surprise why ALL MAJOR civilized nations immediately recognized its independence. Its because, unlike you, they know that Kosova, unlike Serbia, is truly pro-western and built on democratic ideals.

It would not matter to us whether or not they were pro-western. Venezuela is obviously very anti-US, yet we still still respect their sovereignty. "Pro-western" has nothing to do with anything.

AmusedToDeath · #**152** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 12:27 PM

This is taken from the Resolution 1244 which is in power in Kosovo:

Quote:

Decides that the main responsibilities of the international civil presence will include:

1. Promoting the establishment, pending a final settlement, of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo, taking full account of annex 2 and of the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/64

;

2. Performing basic civilian administrative functions where and as long as required;

3. Organizing and overseeing the development of provisional institutions for democratic and autonomous self-government pending a political settlement, including the holding of elections;

4. Transferring, as these institutions are established, its administrative responsibilities while overseeing and supporting the consolidation of Kosovo's local provisional institutions and other peace-building activities;

5. Facilitating a political process designed to determine Kosovo's future status, taking into account the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/64

;

6. In a final stage, overseeing the transfer of authority from Kosovo's provisional institutions to institutions established under a political settlement;

7. Supporting the reconstruction of key infrastructure and other economic reconstruction;

8. Supporting, in coordination with international humanitarian organizations, humanitarian and disaster relief aid;

9. Maintaining civil law and order, including establishing local police forces and meanwhile through the deployment of international police personnel to serve in Kosovo;

10. Protecting and promoting human rights;

11. Assuring the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo;

In practice, this means full authority of UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo) and the Special Representative of the SC of UN (or commonly known as the Chief of UNMIK) to annul any act of the Kosovar parliament or government that they find not suitable. The final word for everything in Kosovo is upon UNMIK.

Even the Ahtisari plan (which proposes higher authorities for Kosovar government) has similar things (supervision and control) in mind:

Quote:

According to the Ahtisaari’s proposal, in the future the Union’s role in Kosovo should become far more complex, since it would replace UNMIK, though with less authority. The responsibility for managing its own affairs and fulfilling its obligations under the Settlement would be given to Kosovo, whereas the supervision would be performed by the International Civilian Representative who would at the same time be the EU Special Representative, appointed by the International Steering Group (ISG)50 and the Council of the EU, and would be the final authority regarding interpretation of the civilian aspects of the Settlement.51 The Representative would be supported by the International Civilian Office, which would be smaller than the present UNMIK with a substantially different role, since it would not have the executive mandate to administer Kosovo. But it would have the authority to annul all decisions it considers inconsistent with the Settlement.52 Its mandate would last until the ISG determines that Kosovo has implemented the Settlement.53

So, you see. Kosovo is far from independence de facto. Civil control comes from the outside, military control comes from the outside.

Kosovo is a UN protectorate, and as long as the Resolution 1244 is in power, Kosovo is considered an autonomous province.

Sadistic-Savior · #**153** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

In practice, this means full authority of UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo) and the Special Representative of the SC of UN (or commonly known as the Chief of UNMIK) to annul any act of the Kosovar parliament or government that they find not suitable. The final word for everything in Kosovo is upon UNMIK.

Opinion noted. But that isnt what the text you quoted actually says. That is merely your personal interpretation.

btw - what is the source for that text?

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Kosovo is a UN protectorate, and as long as the Resolution 1244 is in power, Kosovo is considered an autonomous province.

The US recognizes Kosovo as a sovereign state. As far as I am concerned, that supersede's the UN. I do not recognize the US as being subordinate to the UN.

AmusedToDeath · #**154** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

Opinion noted. But that isnt what the text you quoted actually says. That is merely your personal interpretation.

btw - what is the source for that text?

The US recognizes Kosovo as a sovereign state. As far as I am concerned, that supersede's the UN. I do not recognize the US as being subordinate to the UN.

You can google for Ahtisari plan and you will see the same thing. It's not my opinion, and Special Representatives have annulled many decisions in the past.

Considering US recognition of Kosovo, why does US recognize UNMIK as the supreme civil controller if Kosovo is sovereign?

Sadistic-Savior · #**155** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 12:54 PM

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Considering US recognition of Kosovo, why does US recognize UNMIK as the supreme civil controller if Kosovo is sovereign?

Source please.

AmusedToDeath · #**156** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

Source please.

Sadistic, do you even have basic knowledge of the Kosovo situation? And if not, why the hell are you discussing in these threads? To tell us "STOP US IF YOU CAN" and other neo-con crap?

Sadistic-Savior · #**157** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Me: Source please.

Sadistic, do you even have basic knowledge of the Kosovo situation?

I am unwilling to simply take your word for it. Sorry.

I think it is likely you may be projecting your personal interpretation as fact. I want to read your source for myself for that reason. Are you saying you do not have a source you can share with us?

AmusedToDeath · #**158** (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

I am unwilling to simply take your word for it. Sorry.

I think it is likely you may be projecting your personal interpretation as fact. I want to read your source for myself for that reason. Are you saying you do not have a source you can share with us?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisi...elf-Government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constit...atus_of_Kosovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Sadistic-Savior · #**159** (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 06:40 AM

I looked at your links...I could not find anything to support your claim that the US recognizes the UN as having some kind of veto power over the elected Kosovar government. Can you quote the portions of the text you believe support your claim?

The links state in several places that the US explicitly recognizes Kosovo as independent. This implies, IMO, that the US recognizes Kosovo as fully sovereign, and not subordinate to any foreign power...including the UN.

Here is the full text of the declaration:

Quote:

We, the democratically elected leaders of our people, hereby declare Kosovo to be an independent and sovereign state. This declaration reflects the will of our people and it is in full accordance with the recommendations of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari and his Comprehensive Proposal for the Kosovo Status Settlement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7249677.stm

Here is the definition of sovereign:

Quote:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
sov·er·eign Audio Help /ˈsɒvrɪn, ˈsɒvərɪn, ˈsʌv-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sov-rin, sov-er-in, suhv-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10. efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sovereign

Here is evidence that the US has recognized that text:

Quote:

Kosovo's second declaration of independence has already been recognized as of 21 May 2008 by 42 foreign states, including also Afghanistan, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Canada, Republic of China (Taiwan), Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Nauru, Peru, Poland, San Marino, Senegal, Slovenia, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Ko...ional_reaction

Your links show ambiguity with the UN and show that nations like Russia and Serbia do not recognize Kosovo as being fully independent. But to me your own links make it obvious the US does not recognize any foreign power as having supreme authority above the Kosovar government.

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