I have nothing against the Jews. They are wonderful people.

But the Zionist are evil murders who engage in torture and genocide against innocent people.

Same tiresome BS sentiment that the Nazi's promulgated. Get back under your rock and to your Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We all know what you are. You aren't fooling anybody.

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Typical White Person

No, you kill the mother(*)(*)(*)(*)ers. Dead. And anyone preaching appeasement to terrorists is advocating the expanded use of terrorism. There is only one way to deal with terrorism and terrorists. A bullet between the eyes. Of course, terrorists talking about caring about human life is a joke...

Like I said before. If you want Arab grievances to be heard, stop conducting Arab atrocities. Nobody cares about your grievances when you are worse than those who you claim are the cause of your grievance.

Let's see about this war of yours. It started when Hezbollah fired rockets at border towns and then fired anti-tank missiles at Israeli military vehicles. Hezbollah then kidnapped the survivors. After everything was said and done, the ceasefire included the disarmament of Hezbollah, the UN in Southern Lebanon, and the withdrawl of Israeli forces. True to form, after Israel withdrew, both the UN and Lebanon renigged on their pledge to disarm Hezbollah. Hezbollah started it and is directly responsible for what happened. Deal with it.

That is an unknown, but it is likely. The US was not the only country calling for Iraq to comply with the UN resolutions. Here is my question to you. If Saddam had complied with the will of the UN, would the sanctions have been lifted and the children saved?

No reading comprehension problems here. What Osama says and what he does doesn't add up. Given his history of lying and the fact that what he says in private does NOT match what he says in public would lead one to believe he is not being honest.

Words used in one setting vs. words used in another setting can be quite different. I guess it is up to the readers to decide whether Osama is going to be more honest talking to his friends or talking to his enemies. You still haven't explained why Osama hasn't attacked Israel for it's supposed attrocities, but instead attacked the US. I've given several good possible scenarios, but I have yet to hear one from you that fits your claims.

No they are not. They are key to the whole issue. Bush claimed Al Qaeda hates us for our freedom and it is true. Trying to narrow the definition of freedom down to one small case and then claiming that that is the only definition of freedom is patently dishonest.

You don't think Osama hates the US for our "sacriligious" ways? The Arab world has vowed to wipe out Israel, yet Israel remains free. You don't think this grates on Osama? American women walk free and without a burka. True, many places in the Middle East allow this, but the way Osama wants it would have these "crimes" (a.k.a. freedoms) punishable by death.

Why is it Osama (through you apparently) gets to define freedom when it is Bush who made the claim? I am sure he is feeling rather repressed right now. What with the bounty on his head and most of his friends either dead or in prison. Strange.... I can't drum up an ounce of sympathy for that son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*).

Coming from a liar, consistancy is the key. Once again, care to explain why Osama attacks the US for "assisting" Israel, but leaves Israel alone to continue to heap supposed injustices on the Palestinians? I'll give you a hint. He WANTS strife in the Middle East. He WANTS tension. He WANTS the hate to grow. It is how he perceives he can get what he wants; Islam to rise up against the West.

Yet he leaves them alone. Why?

Yet they both left Israel alone to attack the US. Why?

No, I have common sense and you are unable to answer the questions about the discrepancies between what Osama and his ilk say vs. what they do.

How many times do I have to say this? Yes, part of his reason was our support of Israel. It is like a permanent wedgie to him that he can't dig out of his crack. It still makes no sense going by what you claim are the reasons for him to attack the US and leave Israel untouched.

And? What does this prove? That Arabs hate Jews? Wow. You're right. That is breaking news! Why wait for Sharon to get here? Why not assassinate him where he lives? Why not blow up key targets in Israel and hurt those who he is whining about?

Evidence of what? That there is more to this than meets the eye? I agree. Unless you have some reason why he stays away from Israel like a scared little schoolboy stays away from the school bully.

I know you're frustrated because you've been cornered here, but as a matter of objective fact it makes no difference what you believe the tactics of Al Qaeda should be. As long as the Arab world is under attack, groups like Al Qaeda will want to fight back. I'm merely pointing out why they're fighting back, so that the reasons are understood and more terrorism doesn't take place. You'd rather live in a fantasy world where you're so cool that people would want to kill you for no reason. That's a fantasy world, and it's not the world we live in.

If you're trying to paint the war as an act of Lebanese aggression, I won't let you get away with that. The Lebanese, as they have reiterated before, were going to capture Israeli soldiers (as opposed to the illegal capture of civilians by Israel), and they would do this in order to secure the release of Lebanese prisoners in a prisoner exchange as they had done before.

The Israelis instead of choosing prisoner negotiations, instead chose the path of barbarism and started a war, and they got the sht knocked out of them for doing so.


Explain your reasoning here. You're telling us all here that absent the US there would have been sanctions on Iraq killing 500,000 children. It was the US that argued that sanctions should be in effect against the Iraqi people because it would force them to rise up against Saddam. Prove me otherwise.

I've given you sources on him by those who know him best, I've given you his own statements, I've given you the statements of other like-minded terrorists, I've given you the motivations of other terrorists, and the best you can come up with is that you don't believe it? How do you refute what I said?

You're repeating yourself now, and if I were you I would too. My explanation on this point would be the same as above. And as for Israel, it's because through direct and indirect action the US has caused the largest harm, as explained earlier.

You're explanation is laughably absurd. Your explanation is that Bin Laden attacked American because women don't wear burkas.

Give me the name of one country in the world other than Afghanistan where women are forced to wear burkas.


You're confusing Bush's statements with Bin Ladens. You responded to Bin Ladens writing about freedom, not Bush.

He certainly wants Arab countries to rise up against America, but that's a different issue. You don't believe Bin Laden's claims, and you won't even believe the claims of those who know him best? Your argument has been reduced to you complaining that everyone is a liar and no evidence is enough to make a difference.
For the reasons I mentioned above. It's clear by now that you have been convinced of the centrality of Israel in fueling terrorism, but your argument has been reduced to typing for the sake of typing and face saving.


So you concede the point about Yousef's motivations in carrying out the WTC bombing.

Well, it seems you've ceded the argument then.

I don't think Arabs hate Jews, and that's a false generalization. He was going to push up the attacks because Sharon had visited the Islamic temple mount in Jerusalem, something that's off limit to non-Muslims. This sparked the intifada, and it was the reason why Bin Laden wanted to push up the attacks.

In the face of quotes by Bin Laden and other terrorists, in the face of quotes by those who knew him best, in the face of polls of the Arab world, in the face of clear motivations of those terrorists that have attacked America, the best you can do is say you don't believe it.

This is all irrefutable evidence which you have not been able to even argue against except for suggesting that no matter what evidence is presented, you won't believe it.

I've debated a lot of pro-Israel folks, and their arguments can generally be classified in 4 categories. To give you an example, someone will point out Israeli atrocities in the 34 day war

And the Israeli response:

A) That's racist

B) You're an anti-Semite

C) You're a Jew hater

D) What a Holocaust!!!!!!!

Wow. Can you be any more dishonest? Seriously. I've already stated repeatedly that I agree that they have grievances. I am not living in some kind of fantasy land. Statements like this only show your desperation.

And you've outlined the perfect catch 22. The Arab world feels like it is "under attack" so it uses terrorism instead of addressing their grievances the way the rest of the world does. Rest of the world gets pissed off that these jagoffs are blowing stuff up, so they go hunting terrorists. Think anyone is going to listen to their grievances? Nope. It is still the best policy to kill terrorists wherever you find them. Want the world to address your legitimate grievances? Quit with the terrorism.

So they do that by killing innocent civilians and then soldiers? And this is exactly what I was talking about. Reward atrocious behavior with a reward and they will continue to do atrocious behavior. I am not saying Lebanon was the only guilty party, but even by your own admission they have the majority of the blame. THEY initiated the war by killing innocents and then killing and kidnapping soldiers.

Strange.... that's not how it looked from here. And again, Israel did the right thing this time. They showed good judgment by not giving in to the Lebanese demands when they've done something wrong. If they had, they would have invited Lebanon to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers as a "legitimate" way to arrange for their soldiers release.

And how am I to do that? Build a time machine? The US was NOT the only country that believed Saddam was a threat or the world wouldn't have voted for the sanctions. Blaming an action agreed upon by the world on a single country is disingenuous, and claiming that you somehow know that if the US hadn't brought it up that nobody else would have is also seriously flawed.

And how about answering my question? IF Saddam has complied with the sanctions, would the sanctions have been lifted? How about placing the responsibility where it belongs for a change.

How many times do I have to say this? And you say I have reading comprehension problems! I do not question that our support of Israel is one of many reasons Osama has to hate us. I do not even question that it is his major beef. OK, pay attention. Here it comes. AGAIN. I DO question his stated motives as his true motives. Why? Two reasons. First, his motives he states in private are different from his public statements, and statements said in private that his enemies are not suppose to hear carry more weight than the words spoken directly to the enemy. This is NOT a hard concept to grasp. Try.

Second, his actions make no sense when you look at them. He has two groups of enemies; his sworn enemy Israel and the collective West. Israel is close. Israel is the core of his hatred. The US helps his enemy but is many times larger, much further away and can retaliate in a way Israel cannot. So who does he attack? The lesser, but far more difficult of the two.

Now maybe his towel is wrapped too tight and he actually thinks this makes sense, but to me it makes no sense whatsoever, and when something makes no sense, one should look for ulterior motives. YOU can go ahead and believe everything he tells you. The rest of us will take it with a grain of salt and not allow Osama's words to dictate everything we know of his motives.

Again I reject your explanation. It was via Israeli soldiers and actions that the grievances were committed. We supplied some of the weapons. Is it a common Arab trait to go after the supplier instead of the person committing the crime? That must make it awfully nice on the criminals and awfully hard on anyone who feeds them or gives them a knife or gun.

Well, I guess you're just not intelligent enough to grasp the simple concept. Yes, one part of it is the fact that women don't wear burkas. A very small part. The BIG part is that we don't follow his way of life; the extreme Muslim way. But then again, I guess I can't blame you for trying to nitpick the point. You know it's true and are trying to minimize it.

Doesn't even have to be a country. Anywhere where the people force the strict following of the Koran. Example How about your own country?

Oh FFS. It all boils down to Bush's statement. What do you think Osama was responding to?

No, you've been reduced to blatantly misrepresenting what another poster is saying. Where have I said anyone was lying? I don't believe Osama is being honest about his motives, but I have no reason to doubt his perceived grievances. How about being honest yourself and cut with blatantly misrepresenting people?

When are you going to debate the issue and quit making excuses?

No, for all the reasons I've already stated. Do I believe it is part of it? Sure. Do I believe it is the only motive? No. There is more going on here than simple revenge.

Dream on.

Yeah right. Keep dreaming on that one. Your own words betray you and what you believe the Arab world believes.

Again, where have I said I don't believe it? Again, this is a lie by you. But hey. If the only way you can debate is by lying, I understand.

Um, no, this would be irrefutable evidence that you have failed miserably at answering the questions I have presented to you that make me question revenge as his only motive. But like I said, you go with what you have, so if all you have left is false claims, go for it.

And if one points out Islamic atrocities, that individual will be tormented beyond belief by media watchdog groups, asking about racial and ethnic insensitivity.

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Henry K.

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stoff up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill

"I notice that everybody who is Pro-Abortion has already been born." Ronald Reagan

Argueing or trying to understand people that have a pedophile as a prophet is just a waste of time. Their core belief system is scew'd.

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From Genocide to Genocide