Fair enough - however, I see that even the minimum requirements we told them they must meet (or we'd leave) haven't been met. Tell me again why we're still there?

I'm afraid you'll be waiting a long time for that, because, you see, success in Iraq is an extremely difficult and complicated thing which can better be measured 50 years from now instead of right now.

And following that, using your logic (50 years before we know what the hell is going on today), we won't know if Mr. Bush's happy little war in Iraq has been a success for five decades, so it's decidedly odd that you're trying to say our attack and invasion of Iraq has been a "success" at this early stage in your timeline.

BTW, were you going to address any of these issues?

• If the surge is working, why are there MORE troops there now, after the surge, than before?
  
• Where do we get the authority to insist that another country adopt OUR form of government?
  
• They have asked us to leave. Several times.

Go find for me where I said that our attack and invasion has been a success. I didn't say that; you made it up because you can't actually read and address my real points but feel the need to make up strawman points that you can try to attack.

I said that the surge was working. That means the tactics we adopted are achieving the short term goals we wanted such as less violence. Does that mean the entire thing has been a success? No, it does not. It just means the surge is working.

Go look up what the tactics in the surge were and what they demanded in terms of troop levels. If you don't know the answer to this, I'm not confident that I'm discussing this with a well informed person.

Our form of government is working rather well, all things considered. It is certainly much better than the government Saddam had. The fact that the Iraqis went through with their own elections shows that at least a large portion of the society wanted to participate in a democratic form of government.

Some have, that's true. However, we started a process which would yield horrible results if it were left in the middle and not finished.

__________________
"When we consider that women have been treated as property it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

- A perfect example of why I'm a paranoid parent.

Excuse me, but the "surge" is over. Done. Finito. Please pay attention!

The stated goal of the "surge" (an egregious misuse of the word that easily-duped warhawks were happy to ignore) was to provide the “breathing space” for political reconciliation to occur. In that political reconciliation did not occur, it would appear that the "surge" didn't work. And let's don't forget that we've got approximately 18,000 more troops there now - after the "surge" - than we did before the "surge." If it worked so well, why do we need 18,000 MORE troops in Iraq post-"surge?"

The stated goal of the 18 benchmarks was to gauge "success in Iraq." In that those 18 benchmarks have not been met, it would appear that actual "success in Iraq" cannot be claimed, or even hinted at (despite such attempts by right-wing war lovers).

As for "success in Iraq:"

So, let's hear YOUR idea of acceptable levels of violence. Is yours any more definitive than the non-answer offered by the White House?

Realistically, the only legitimate gauge of how much violence is acceptable in Iraq should come from an Iraqi, don't you think? Or do you know more about violence in Iraq than those Iraqis directly affected by it?

From the OP, it would appear that Iraq remains a very violent place. (Once again, the "surge" is over. Please try to keep up!)

When I asked: Where do we get the authority to insist that another country adopt OUR form of government? you responded with a non-answer:

Would you mind actually answering the question posed? Thanks.

What option did they have? We invaded and occupied their country. People with guns and bombs (us) TOLD them they were going to have a democracy, and WE set up the "election." Beyond this, there haven‘t been any provincial elections, so I guess they're not all that excited about participating in a democratic form of government.

Ah, you're able to read the future! Please send the next winning lottery numbers to me via PM!

The true tactic behind the "surge" was to escalate our involvement in Iraq. There are more troops there now - after the surge has ended - than there were before it began. By that measure, and ONLY by that measure, the "surge" was a success - Mr. Bush got more of our young men and women to put their lives on the line to bolster his tiny little ego and keep feeding his love for war (and oil).

Join the club.

Wrong wrong wrong. The surge is now in place. It's not 'done' or 'over' just because the initial phase of what the surge was accomplished [putting more troops at the local levels instead of bases]. The effects of the surge are still ongoing and being observed. Therefore, the surge is not over, the troops are still at the local levels where the surge put them.

15/18 - 83.33%. Tell me Glinda, do you think students who get an 83 or below should not be allowed to pass? 15 of the 18 benchmarks are satisfactory. Considering the conditions involved and that only 3 were met in January, that is pretty good.

I don't have one. I just know they should be much lower than they are now. Do you have an acceptable level?

The surge is not over. The troops have been put in place. That part of the surge is over. Their continued occupation of those localities is still having positive effects all over Iraq. Please try to keep up.

No, I responded with an explicit explanation on the implicit reason. Our government works and is a model of human rights and freedom. Their previous government sucked and allowed for atrocities such as mass graves and rape rooms. Therefore, by reason of might and war conquest, we have the right to put forth a better form of government that will allow more individual liberty and freedoms. Don't like that? Sometimes life is tough.

I'm not able to read the future, just use common sense. If we take out a corrupt government and leave a power vaccuum next to Iran, Iran will move in and set up shop. That's not being clairvoyant, that's just being observant.

Violence is down. That's a pretty good measure in my opinion.

Tell me Glinda, what would your measure of success in Iraq be, now that we are there?

__________________
"When we consider that women have been treated as property it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

- A perfect example of why I'm a paranoid parent.

Try to keep up, Skippy!

Thousands of lives have been lost in Mr. Bush's petty little "I'm gonna git that bastid who said bad things about mah daddy!" war. How certain are you that the families of all those who have died in fulfilling Mr. Bush's Blood For Oil plans would agree with your "pretty good" assessment?

Of course not. Tip: using undefined terms in debate is a losing strategy.

See above.

No, we don't have that right. Nor does "might make right" carry any water in today's world. Want to try again?

Again with the "pretty good." Tell that to the 18 people from the OP.

Leaving.

Typical approach of yours Glinda. Show a complete lack of understand of what you are talking about and then be condescending to others who actually understand concepts like "just because the troops are now in place doesn't mean that the 'surge' is over."

Sigh... you are just boring.

Yep, it was all for oil. You got us, game over, we're caught. Let's start a world court and try Bush for his crimes! Then we could dance around be glad that the nasty conservative man got what he deserved!

Sigh... what do you think about Saddam and his reign in Iraq, Glinda? Got any opinions on the rape rooms and mass graves? What about those families?

You didn't answer either. How utterly unsurprising.

We attacked them and won. We have a better system than they did. We have the right by everything that makes the world run to allow that system to take root there. Don't like it? Go protest or something.

Ahh so are you suggesting that anything less than zero deaths is acceptable? Do you live in reality? Are you aware of what occurred in Iraq before we got there? It wasn't exactly a bastion of peace and civil rights. I'm pretty sure someone with your beliefs would have been executed quickly or thrown in a rape room for Saddam's soldiers to play with.

Not a good idea. What happens with Iran looks Iraq's way? Be realistic and use sophisticated means of perceiving the world. Just avoiding war and getting out of there will be much worse for everyone involved in the long run, including the Iraqi populace. That's just common sense which is surprisingly uncommon, it seems.

__________________
"When we consider that women have been treated as property it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

- A perfect example of why I'm a paranoid parent.

The Iraqi Constitution which is being hammered out by the freely elected government of Iraq is in the process of being finalized.

Your information is incorrect. The US military had roughly 160 troops in Iraq at the end of 2005 and today has +/- 145,000.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/troops.htm<< Here's the source.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat.htm<<Here too.

They got it from your position that implied that because terrorists murdered a dozen people that the surge hadn't worked and the Liberation of Iraq could not be a success. You'll note above that you also implied that because the Iraqi Constitution is still being considered that the surge didn't work and the Liberation of Iraq cannot be said to be a success. You may recall posting this:
Is it really that complex? Do you not have a fair understanding of what success means? Success in Iraq is measured by several tests against the goals set forth at the beginning of the war.

#1- Remove Hussein and the Baath Socialist Party of Iraq from Power. CHECK!

#2- Establish an interim government, to provide for the election of a democratically elected Iraqi Government. CHECK!

#3- Provide for that freely elected interim Iraqi Government to create an Iraqi Constitution and elect a permanent Iraqi Government based upon that Iraqi Constitution created by the freely elected government of Iraq. CHECK!

#4- Maintain security in support of that freely elected Iraqi government; while seeking out closing with and destroying any and all elements of international Islamic terrorism where they are found; and in the process assist that government in the training of and rebuilding of a new Iraqi Military and civil infrastructure. ON SCHEDULE AND EXCELLENT GOOD PROGRESS.

For everyone who thinks Iraq was so much better under Saddam I will show you two groups of picture:

Iraqi Kurdistan under Saddam
http://www.azady.nl/images/articles/halabja4.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/kurdo/11605972/
http://flickr.com/photos/kurdo/11605973/
http://www.bhopal.net/otherbhopals/archives/halabja.jpg



Iraqi Kurdistan now
http://flickr.com/photos/kurdo/5023411/
http://flickr.com/photos/kurdo/4874872/
http://flickr.com/photos/kurdo/4874901/
http://mediastorm.org/0011.htm



There is no doubt that good things have come from the fall of Saddam.

__________________
"We consider this our duty - to defend humanity against the scourge of intolerance, violence, and fanaticism." -Ahmed Shah Massoud
Ahmed Shah Massoud T-Shirt