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Originally Posted by ziggy
Bobcat1 – We can go around in circles with questions all day, but I’m not one to take sides on this issue, so don’t expect me to defend either side. What I’m trying to point out is that there are two sides to this story (like many other stories), which I had mentioned in my first post.
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There comes a time when you simply have to take sides. I know it's popular nowadays to dance in the middle ground and feel good about yourself, when it comes to the Mid-East. But, the fact of the matter is, there really is no middle ground to take here. The Palestinian Authority, as well as most of the arab states of the region, do not want peace with Israel. Since 1948, the arab ruling factions of the region have encouraged this impasse, have intentionally placed Israel in the political position with Palestine, in order to paint Israel as the bully and the occupier. This, in itself, is a lie. The arabs of the Middle East want to destroy Israel as a political entity, because they view its existence as an affront to Islam. This is why, for all the concessions Israel was willing to give following the Arab-Israeli War, following the Six Day War, and the Camp David Accords, the arab leadership rejected Israel's offers outright and upheld the status quo.
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As an interesting anecdote, Ehud Barrack (current secretary of defence, former PM and former head of the IDF) has said that if he were a Palestinian, he would be a part of the resistance. I know that he would, and all it really takes to come to that conclusion is to view things in a non-biased (different perspective) type of way.
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I'm unfamiliar with this anecdote, but I'll look it up. I'm sure you are taking Barrack's words out of context.
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The Palestinian people are living in a collection of refugee camps
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You are aware, they are in refugee camps because Jordan refused to assimilate these people into their own country after invading Israel in the Six Day War, aren't you?
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and the history of the negotiations shows us that their leaders didn’t receive what they wanted. The Israelis are the “Giving” side in the negotiations, and what they are willing to give is not enough for the Palestinian leaders.
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What do the Palestinian leaders want? The rallying cry of both Hamas and Fatah is the slogan, "from the river to the sea," meaning that Palestine, from the River Jordan to the Mediterranian Sea should be the borders of a Palestinian state. Even Abbas, who is called a Palestinian moderate, doesn't renounce this arab vision of a future Palestinian state. So, what do they ask that Israel finds hard to give? The Right of Return. The Palestinians want every single Palestinian, for several generations back, who ever owned land in Israel to be able to return to that land, displacing Israeli's who live there now? Why would they ask for such an insane thing? Primarily to change the demography of Israel's democratic populace and to make Israel another Muslim nation through popular appeal. In other words, if they can't do it with guns, then they'll do it with bodies.
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In other words, in any negotiation there are two sides, and the Israelis have to figure out what they are willing to give in order to reach a peaceful resolution.
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Israel want something too, though. They want peace. They want the right not to be blown up by fanatics on buses and in marketplaces. They want the right not to have Qassam missiles launched into their neighborhoods. Is this beyond the power of the Palestinians to give? Are you so blind that this simple ineluctable fact?
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That in itself explains part of the reality of this conflict, the Palestinian people are living in horrible conditions and they want what was lawfully given to them by the UN in 1948.
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Those borders given to them in 1946, before the first Mid-East war, were offered back to them by the Israeli's, after their victory, in return for a pledge for ceasefire. The offer was made again after the Six Day War. And the arab nations of the region, one and all, refused this offer.
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We all know that that’s not going to happen, so what are they going to get? Is it 50%, 70%, 20% - How much is enough? Read about the negotiations (2000-2001) and see where the problematic points were.
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Israel has shown an extreme willingness to surrender land, for peace. The arabs of the region, in turn, have shown an extreme inclination to take that land and use it as a launching point to attack Israeli citizens.
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Please have a look at the 1967 borders, and then have a look at the 1948 borders. Ask yourself what has really been going on in the last 60 years before you simply consider this a one-sided violent conflict (Hint: In reality there are additional sides, not only the two).
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And you ask yourself, what does Israel gain with the occupation? Is there some hidden resource on the West Bank that helps their economy? Or do you honestly believe the Israeli government is seeking to extend its empire to the Jordan River? It should be obvious, even to the most myopic of political savants, that Israel gains only one thing from the occupation: namely, the security of its own citizens. And this is the one thing that the Palestinians refuse to offer back to Israel in any senario.