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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
There comes a time when you simply have to take sides. I know it's popular nowadays to dance in the middle ground and feel good about yourself, when it comes to the Mid-East. But, the fact of the matter is, there really is no middle ground to take here.
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I will be on the side that wants meaningful negotiations to take place, both sides are simply too bloody for my own personal taste. I want the common people on both sides to have what most people on the Israeli side have, a generally comfortable way to live their life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat1
I'm unfamiliar with this anecdote, but I'll look it up. I'm sure you are taking Barrack's words out of context.
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If you can't find it anywhere, read about the Israeli "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel" (Lehi) and "Etzel" (for some reason called Irgun in English) pre-1948, they will paint the same kind of picture with other former Israeli leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
You can trust me about the Barrack quote, but you don't have to.
(I've lived in Israel long enough, and speak Hebrew well enough to know what I heard and the context)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat1
You are aware, they are in refugee camps because Jordan refused to assimilate these people into their own country after invading Israel in the Six Day War, aren't you?
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And Egypt as well (Gaza Strip).
The Palestinian people have been screwed over by everybody, hence the "More than two sides" point that I'd mentioned. What next? How long can people live in these conditions without getting upset?
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
What do the Palestinian leaders want?
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I think you know what they want (you pointed out a few of the issues further down), the question is what can (or will) they get?
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
The rallying cry of both Hamas and Fatah is the slogan, "from the river to the sea," meaning that Palestine, from the River Jordan to the Mediterranian Sea should be the borders of a Palestinian state.
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Do you know the counter Jewish slogan about the land given to them from god?
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
Even Abbas, who is called a Palestinian moderate, doesn't renounce this arab vision of a future Palestinian state. So, what do they ask that Israel finds hard to give? The Right of Return. The Palestinians want every single Palestinian, for several generations back, who ever owned land in Israel to be able to return to that land, displacing Israeli's who live there now? Why would they ask for such an insane thing?
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Why do extreme Jews build homes in Occupied land? Why do such an insane thing if you will have to return it at some point?
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
Israel want something too, though. They want peace. They want the right not to be blown up by fanatics on buses and in marketplaces. They want the right not to have Qassam missiles launched into their neighborhoods. Is this beyond the power of the Palestinians to give?
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1. This is an issue that Palestinian leaders won't be able to deliver the day after the papers are signed. Why do you think that is?
2. Sderot has under 20,000 people living in it, Gaza has about 1.5 million. The effects of the Qassam rockets are 7 dead over the years... Would you like to compare body counts?
3. Terrorism is a result of radicalization. The question is how do you prevent people from being radicalized? I honestly don't think that the answer involves caging them behind walls & fences in conditions that you and I can't really understand.
Think: Perspective.
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
Those borders given to them in 1946, before the first Mid-East war, were offered back to them by the Israeli's, after their victory, in return for a pledge for ceasefire. The offer was made again after the Six Day War. And the arab nations of the region, one and all, refused this offer.
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Yes, more than one side. I'd like to see the source you've been looking at, but either way: Egypt, Jordan, and Syria are to blame for the current situation as well, how does this help us in the year of 2008? There is an agreement with Jordan & Egypt, and the Palestinian people (3.5 million of them) are stuck in the middle of it all.
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
Israel has shown an extreme willingness to surrender land, for peace.
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We didn't talk about Jerusalem, but the map of the "Holy Land" is always changing.
Compare between the 3 maps please: 1948 - 1967 - 1994/2001 negotiations.
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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
And you ask yourself, what does Israel gain with the occupation? Is there some hidden resource on the West Bank that helps their economy? Or do you honestly believe the Israeli government is seeking to extend its empire to the Jordan River? It should be obvious, even to the most myopic of political savants, that Israel gains only one thing from the occupation: namely, the security of its own citizens. And this is the one thing that the Palestinians refuse to offer back to Israel in any senario.
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I'd touched this issue in my reply to Topaz... No need to double write it...
Peace.