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Old 02-09-2008, 09:50 AM
Bobcat1 Bobcat1 is offline
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Default Israel

Thank you for a polite and well thought out response.

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Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
I will be on the side that wants meaningful negotiations to take place, both sides are simply too bloody for my own personal taste. I want the common people on both sides to have what most people on the Israeli side have, a generally comfortable way to live their life.
Your argument seems to be, since both party's are overly violent, they should be given equal merit. I disagree. The violence, no matter how deplorable, does not in any way alter or mitigate the basic facts of the Middle East. Israel is not intent on regional hegemony. They only want to live peacefully in the land that they are currently residing in. They want the right of self-determination. The Palestinians, on the other hand, want this and a little bit more. They want all the land of Palestine, and all the land of Israel to boot. One has only to look at the charters of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Fatah to see that this is true.

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If you can't find it anywhere, read about the Israeli "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel" (Lehi) and "Etzel" (for some reason called Irgun in English) pre-1948, they will paint the same kind of picture with other former Israeli leaders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

You can trust me about the Barrack quote, but you don't have to.
(I've lived in Israel long enough, and speak Hebrew well enough to know what I heard and the context)
You can be sure I'll look it up. However, Barack's words really won't change things, as both you and I know.

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And Egypt as well (Gaza Strip).
The Palestinian people have been screwed over by everybody, hence the "More than two sides" point that I'd mentioned. What next? How long can people live in these conditions without getting upset?
But why don't they suicide bomb Egypt, or Jordan, or Lebanon? Why only Israel? The obvious answer is religious bigotry, on the part of the arabs. Which, in a word, is the cause of the problem in the Middle East.

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I think you know what they want (you pointed out a few of the issues further down), the question is what can (or will) they get?
Look, to draw a comparison, after 16 years, the United States left Vietnam. Even though we were trying to fight for a people's freedom, after 16 years, we said enough was enough. Let's stop fighting and have peace. But it's been 60 years in Palestine, and Palestinians are still fomenting hate and killing. That's all they do. At the risk of sounding glib, it's the national pasttime of Palestinians. The American Negro in America, who suffered much worse deprivations at the hands of his Southern slave-masters, did not go around randomly killing white people in retaliation at any point in American history. The Palestinians have been doing this even before Israel was a nation. Arabs have been killing Jews since 1929. My point is that there is an elephant in the room which good people of the West simply choose to ignore: Palestinians, by and large, are religious bigots who will not give an inch of land to another ethnic group, particularly the Jews.

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Do you know the counter Jewish slogan about the land given to them from god?
Does that slogan claim ALL of the West Bank?

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Why do extreme Jews build homes in Occupied land? Why do such an insane thing if you will have to return it at some point?
But Israel has returned land, even settled land, on numerous occasions. Why settle it? Because it's a bargaining chip for peace. How else do you deal with religious bigots?

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1. This is an issue that Palestinian leaders won't be able to deliver the day after the papers are signed. Why do you think that is?
My answer is, because they don't want to. If there had been enough people against the action in Iraq, the US would never have done it. There aren't enough people in Palestine who want peace. They want war. They want to martyr themselves on Israeli citizens.

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2. Sderot has under 20,000 people living in it, Gaza has about 1.5 million. The effects of the Qassam rockets are 7 dead over the years... Would you like to compare body counts?
Weak argument. This is the typical lie that the arab propaganda machine want you to look at. Proportional death counts do not necessarily make right. The US lost far fewer men than the Japanese in World War II, but the disproportion in fatalities doesn't necessarily mean that America was wrong. Israel has an obligation to protect its people. If the Hamas's murderers are inept and inefficient, that's their own fault.

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3. Terrorism is a result of radicalization. The question is how do you prevent people from being radicalized? I honestly don't think that the answer involves caging them behind walls & fences in conditions that you and I can't really understand. Think: Perspective.
In my opinion, there has been no radicalization of the Palestinian populace. They have been killing Jews since 1929, long before Israel was a state. Israel has become more callous, and some of its members have become radicalized. But the only way to deal with an animal is to cage it, and, in my opinion, the Palestinians are animals. They indoctrinate their youth in hate, they target and kill innocent women and children, and they export terror against governments who only support their enemy financially.


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Yes, more than one side. I'd like to see the source you've been looking at.
This will take some research.


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We didn't talk about Jerusalem, but the map of the "Holy Land" is always changing.
Compare between the 3 maps please: 1948 - 1967 - 1994/2001 negotiations.
I will.

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I'd touched this issue in my reply to Topaz... No need to double write it...
Peace.
And you.

Last edited by Bobcat1; 02-09-2008 at 09:53 AM.
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