Bobcat1 – I’ll try to cover as much as I can, but as I’m jetlagged (it’s about 6am in Australia) and we’re making very long posts, I’ll try to touch the most important points we’ve been going back and forth about.
What I’m trying to point out in general has to do with social conditioning. If you can change the conditions in which a population lives, in this case the Palestinian people, you can (in time) eradicate the “Breeding grounds” of terrorist radicalization and recruitment.
The Palestinian people, who are in no way a representation of “The Arab World”, have (as a people) been living under extremely unpleasant conditions for many years. Before 1967 under Jordanian and Egyptian governance (which we both agree didn’t do much good for them), until 1948 under British Imperialism, and prior to that under the Turkish Empire. All in all, it hasn’t been a piece of cake for them in the last 100 years (at least).
As an extension to the Ehud Barrack quote, and perhaps the point I was trying to make when I brought it up. Do you remember George Bush saying (in reference to Iraq) that he “Wouldn’t Like” to be occupied. This is what it’s about, they don’t “like” their current (and recent) situation, and the conditions in which they live in have created an extremely productive “Opportunity” for radicals and radical thinkers to radicalize the populace. This is why the charters of Hammas, Hezbollah, and Fattah read the way they do (and BTW Hezbollah are Lebanese and not considered Palestinians).
As a side note to this issue, it goes hand in hand with why I personally believe that the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan & Iraq will only widen the plague of terrorism in the world (and the numbers are currently in line with this concept), and create easier conditions for extremists to recruit young and hopeless individuals who may or may not have been affected by the “Coalition” strike personally.
(a) They are occupied. (b) They are not happy about it. (c) They join the “Resistance”.
Change the social conditioning and in time you will win the “War on Terror”. Invading countries, bombing them to shambles, and occupying them for 6-7 years will only create more hatred towards the “American Satan” – If you’re catching my drift…
The comparison to Vietnam and Slavery is useless. The American government went to Vietnam because of the cold war, you say “Freedom” I say “Anti-Communism” (Potatoes & Potato’s). Either way, the American troops left and the Vietnamese people were left to deal with the conditions that their nation was left in… a country in shambles. Nonetheless, they didn’t have to deal with the American troops any longer. In comparison, the Palestinians and Israelis have a small piece of land in their hands (currently the Israelis hands), and they have to find a way to get along because neither one is going anywhere.
With Slavery, although not perfectly (yet), the African-American populace is living in a coexistence within the US, they have the same rights, same opportunities, education system, etc. (like I said, not perfect, but technically) To make my point very clear, there is a somewhat realistic chance that a black politician will become the US President by the end of the year. In comparison, the Palestinians are living in “gated communities” that can only be compared to the finest refugee camps in Darfur. They are at about 40% unemployment, a little over $1,000 GDP, sewers are bursting in the streets, and they rely on the “Good Will” of thy neighbours for energy, water, medical supplies, and other basic needs. They aren’t slaves, they are more like prisoners.
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Palestinians, by and large, are religious bigots who will not give an inch of land to another ethnic group, particularly the Jews.
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I think you are a bit confused, but please correct me if I’m wrong. The only Palestinians that exist in our world are the 3.5 million living in the West Bank & Gaza Strip, there are no other Palestinians. With that said, they don’t have land to give, most of the land that was supposedly theirs in 1948 was taken away in 1967. It wasn’t their fault and it wasn’t Israel’s fault, but they (Palestinians) are the ones who have land claims to make and it’s not the other way around.
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Does that slogan claim ALL of the West Bank?
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It claims extended parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and even (you guessed it) Iraq.
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But Israel has returned land, even settled land, on numerous occasions.
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Why the extensive building in the West Bank and Jerusalem areas, yet almost nothing going on in the Golan Heights?
This is (like you said) for negotiating reasons and about what areas can be negotiated vs. what’s taboo. If and when the Israeli government gives more bits and pieces of land back to the Palestinian people, they will have a lot on their hands.
The first issue is which territories, the “Holy Land” is very small (that’s why I wanted you to look at the maps and compare between the differences). The second issue is Jerusalem, and this is going to be quite an issue, especially when it comes to discussing the future of the “Old City”. The final issue is settling with the Jewish settlers (financially), and removing/relocating them (with the IDF assistance if needed).
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You think that what Israel wants is peace and what the Palestinians want is to get rid of the Jewish populace. I can assure you that it’s a little more complex than that. You keep comparing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to the US in some way, but this is a very different conflict that simply cannot be compared with anything that the US has ever been involved with.
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1. This is an issue that Palestinian leaders won't be able to deliver the day after the papers are signed. Why do you think that is?
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My answer is, because they don't want to. If there had been enough people against the action in Iraq, the US would never have done it. There aren't enough people in Palestine who want peace. They want war. They want to martyr themselves on Israeli citizens.
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I would argue that after 40 years of occupation it will take some time to heal all of the wounds from the battle. Give people fear and they’ll go to war, give people hope and they’ll want to live to see another day (the aforementioned social conditioning – true about Iraq as well).
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2. Sderot has under 20,000 people living in it, Gaza has about 1.5 million. The effects of the Qassam rockets are 7 dead over the years... Would you like to compare body counts?
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Weak argument. This is the typical lie that the arab propaganda machine want you to look at. Proportional death counts do not necessarily make right. The US lost far fewer men than the Japanese in World War II, but the disproportion in fatalities doesn't necessarily mean that America was wrong. Israel has an obligation to protect its people. If the Hamas's murderers are inept and inefficient, that's their own fault.
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That’s reality, not “Arab propaganda”. You have about 6 million Israelis living life to its fullest and 3.5 Palestinians living behind walls and fences. You have a small town of 20,000 civilians in the south of Israel that gets rocketed by Qassam rockets (which could be compared to firecrackers) vs. the 1.5 million Gaza Cities populace who are basically caged by the Israeli armed forces, with the latest and greatest aerial combat missiles and air-striking technologies, tanks and other “War toys”.
To subjugate the entire Palestinian population to these conditions (and/or cutting off supplies as well) because of some firecrackers being shot at a small town is what I consider unreasonable measures, that’s just my opinion though.
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3. Terrorism is a result of radicalization. The question is how do you prevent people from being radicalized? I honestly don't think that the answer involves caging them behind walls & fences in conditions that you and I can't really understand. Think: Perspective.
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In my opinion, there has been no radicalization of the Palestinian populace. They have been killing Jews since 1929, long before Israel was a state. Israel has become more callous, and some of its members have become radicalized. But the only way to deal with an animal is to cage it, and, in my opinion, the Palestinians are animals. They indoctrinate their youth in hate, they target and kill innocent women and children, and they export terror against governments who only support their enemy financially.
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The radicalization occurs when the 3.5 million people, whom you consider “An Animal”, are caged. How would you like to live in a cage because of no other reason than the lottery of life?
If you are a criminal you should go to jail, Yes!
But if you’re born to a Palestinian family, you’re pretty much born in jail.
Time for me to try and sleep again…
Much respect, Peace.