ziggy, get some sleep before responding. I'm in no big hurry here.
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Originally Posted by ziggy
Bobcat1 – I’ll try to cover as much as I can, but as I’m jetlagged (it’s about 6am in Australia) and we’re making very long posts, I’ll try to touch the most important points we’ve been going back and forth about.
What I’m trying to point out in general has to do with social conditioning. If you can change the conditions in which a population lives, in this case the Palestinian people, you can (in time) eradicate the “Breeding grounds” of terrorist radicalization and recruitment.
The Palestinian people, who are in no way a representation of “The Arab World”, have (as a people) been living under extremely unpleasant conditions for many years. Before 1967 under Jordanian and Egyptian governance (which we both agree didn’t do much good for them), until 1948 under British Imperialism, and prior to that under the Turkish Empire. All in all, it hasn’t been a piece of cake for them in the last 100 years (at least).
As an extension to the Ehud Barrack quote, and perhaps the point I was trying to make when I brought it up. Do you remember George Bush saying (in reference to Iraq) that he “Wouldn’t Like” to be occupied. This is what it’s about, they don’t “like” their current (and recent) situation, and the conditions in which they live in have created an extremely productive “Opportunity” for radicals and radical thinkers to radicalize the populace. This is why the charters of Hammas, Hezbollah, and Fattah read the way they do (and BTW Hezbollah are Lebanese and not considered Palestinians).
As a side note to this issue, it goes hand in hand with why I personally believe that the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan & Iraq will only widen the plague of terrorism in the world (and the numbers are currently in line with this concept), and create easier conditions for extremists to recruit young and hopeless individuals who may or may not have been affected by the “Coalition” strike personally.
(a) They are occupied. (b) They are not happy about it. (c) They join the “Resistance”.
Change the social conditioning and in time you will win the “War on Terror”. Invading countries, bombing them to shambles, and occupying them for 6-7 years will only create more hatred towards the “American Satan” – If you’re catching my drift…
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I hear what you're saying here, and I'm sure it's true to some extent. But none of this information about socializing and conditioning has practical value to either of the parties, particularly since the Palestinians are actively conditioning their youth to hate and violence. How can you teach the mad dog to live outside the cage if, every time you let him out of the cage, he bites you? Gaza is a case in point. Israel left Gaza unilaterally. It's no longer occupied. How did they decide to reward Israel for ending their occupation? They use their newfound freedom and "unoccupied status" to attack Israel in any way they can. Why do they do it? Their occupation is over. What could they possibly be objecting to? Given this behavior, the only practical conclusion one can draw is that the occupation is not the issue. The issue is the Zionist entity which they are all united in wanting to destroy.
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The comparison to Vietnam and Slavery is useless. The American government went to Vietnam because of the cold war, you say “Freedom” I say “Anti-Communism” (Potatoes & Potato’s). Either way, the American troops left and the Vietnamese people were left to deal with the conditions that their nation was left in… a country in shambles. Nonetheless, they didn’t have to deal with the American troops any longer. In comparison, the Palestinians and Israelis have a small piece of land in their hands (currently the Israelis hands), and they have to find a way to get along because neither one is going anywhere.
With Slavery, although not perfectly (yet), the African-American populace is living in a coexistence within the US, they have the same rights, same opportunities, education system, etc. (like I said, not perfect, but technically) To make my point very clear, there is a somewhat realistic chance that a black politician will become the US President by the end of the year. In comparison, the Palestinians are living in “gated communities” that can only be compared to the finest refugee camps in Darfur. They are at about 40% unemployment, a little over $1,000 GDP, sewers are bursting in the streets, and they rely on the “Good Will” of thy neighbours for energy, water, medical supplies, and other basic needs. They aren’t slaves, they are more like prisoners.
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I think the comparison with the Black population is a good one. Blacks do have their militant groups. However, by and large, they are a peaceful people, even though they suffered worse deprivations for a longer period than any Palestinian could have ever dreamed. But these good people never resorted to violence, because they were not born to a culture of violence. The Arab culture sees violence differently though: they see violence only as a means to an end. There was no "violent conditioning" before Arabs attacked Jews in riots in 1929; there was no "negative socializing" when Arab states invade Israel in 1948 and 1967. Saudi Arabia still is in a state of war against Israel to this very day.
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I think you are a bit confused, but please correct me if I’m wrong. The only Palestinians that exist in our world are the 3.5 million living in the West Bank & Gaza Strip, there are no other Palestinians.
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I have no disagreement with these figures, if that's what you're asking.
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With that said, they don’t have land to give, most of the land that was supposedly theirs in 1948 was taken away in 1967.
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My point was not the land they have to give, but the land they are claiming, which all the Palestinian leadership defines as encompassing the whole of Israel. Again, there is no Palestinian (or for that matter Arab) political entity which recognizes Israel's right to exist. To me, this speaks volumes.
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It wasn’t their fault and it wasn’t Israel’s fault, but they (Palestinians) are the ones who have land claims to make and it’s not the other way around.
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I agree it was neither of their faults. But the Palestinians aren't detonating suicide bombs in Cairo, or Amman, or even Damascus. They choose to do it against the only non-Muslim state in the region. Israel.
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It claims extended parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and even (you guessed it) Iraq.
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I'll check it out. You're keeping me very busy, my friend.
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Why the extensive building in the West Bank and Jerusalem areas, yet almost nothing going on in the Golan Heights?
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Well, Jerusalem is a special case. It's the most holy site for most Jews.
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You think that what Israel wants is peace and what the Palestinians want is to get rid of the Jewish populace. I can assure you that it’s a little more complex than that. You keep comparing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to the US in some way, but this is a very different conflict that simply cannot be compared with anything that the US has ever been involved with.
I would argue that after 40 years of occupation it will take some time to heal all of the wounds from the battle. Give people fear and they’ll go to war, give people hope and they’ll want to live to see another day (the aforementioned social conditioning – true about Iraq as well).
That’s reality, not “Arab propaganda”. You have about 6 million Israelis living life to its fullest and 3.5 Palestinians living behind walls and fences. You have a small town of 20,000 civilians in the south of Israel that gets rocketed by Qassam rockets (which could be compared to firecrackers) vs. the 1.5 million Gaza Cities populace who are basically caged by the Israeli armed forces, with the latest and greatest aerial combat missiles and air-striking technologies, tanks and other “War toys”.
To subjugate the entire Palestinian population to these conditions (and/or cutting off supplies as well) because of some firecrackers being shot at a small town is what I consider unreasonable measures, that’s just my opinion though.
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Prior to the wall being built, Israel's death toll was much greater. Palestine was not always as fragmented and garrisoned as it is today. This occurred as a consequence of Palestinian violence. Now, you are telling me that this garrisoning is the cause of Palestinian violence. Well, in some ways it's both, but the violence first has to stop if the occupation is expected to end. It can't be the other way around.
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The radicalization occurs when the 3.5 million people, whom you consider “An Animal”, are caged. How would you like to live in a cage because of no other reason than the lottery of life?
If you are a criminal you should go to jail, Yes!
But if you’re born to a Palestinian family, you’re pretty much born in jail.
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I disagree. History is full of historical examples of oppressed peoples who have managed to exist in peace. All the peoples subjugated by the Romans, the Ottomans, the Mongols who didn't raise arms against their conquerors provide ample evidence of this. At some point, conquered people's are supposed to have peace. Why not Palestine? My contention is that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want peace.
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Time for me to try and sleep again…
Much respect, Peace.
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Good night, and peace.