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Originally Posted by Bobcat1
Thanks for your response, ziggy. It is well-written and well thought out.
We've been discussing the radicalization of Palestinians. After forty years of non-stop Palestinian violence, I think one can speak to the radicalization of the average Israeli, too. To me, this explains the present stance of the Israeli hard-liners you describe. They are fed up with Muslim intransigance. The second layer of your pyramid was "security." There is no question the average Israeli has been deprived of his sense of security.
In my opinion, on the Palestinian, - indeed, on the Arab - side things are different. While segments of their population indeed have been radicalized, that does not explain the hate that is spewed in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. What does explain it is the Muslim view of their place in the world, i.e. their understanding of their religion, and the destiny of Islam as it interacts with non-Muslim nations and peoples.
The Koran makes it very clear that Allah is the owner of all infidel lands:
"Allah gradually reduces the land controlled by the unbelievers..." 21.44
"Allah grabs the land of the unbelievers…" 28:58
"Allah promises believers His sovereignty on earth. He will establish the authority of His chosen religion (Islam)…" 24:55
These lines from the Koran all imply military victory by usurping infidel territory. It implies that Muslims are the legitimate heirs of all the land on the earth. This alone, in my opinion, explains 80 years of Arab and Palestinian intolerance. Historically, Israel has offered peace. Perhaps the present day political situation in Israel is not so inclined to pacifism. I will accept your interpretation of public opinion in Israel. Even so, the fact is that the Muslim states are the real stumbling block, for, while it is possible to reason with Israel's hawks, if their security can be gauranteed, nothing you say will convince the religious extremists on the Arab side to lay down their arms.
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I’m not going to try and explain the Palestinians interpretation of the Koran.
Religion is quite a thing when it’s taken word for word…
If we really get into the religious aspects of this conflict you have to look for some answers in the Old Testament as well, that “Old Book” that declares that the Jews are the so-called “Chosen People” (which means I’m chosen for something, I’m just not sure what?!).
We can get into quotes about - “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob…” (The three Jewish fathers)
"On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizzites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Girga(*)(*)(*)(*)es and Yevusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)
**** The (*) stuff appears because of the 'S' word...
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There are of course many more biblical passages, not to mention the glorification of Joshua who led the Jewish people (after Moses) in conquering the “Promised Land” one city after another. I can go on and on with these examples only to come to the conclusion that God is not a real-estate broker, and if he were he lied to one of his two most important clients.
Even so, the religious aspects to this conflict are real, and it’s a shame that both sides use these types of quotes to justify their actions. As a side note, I’m reminding myself of an interesting CNN special that I saw called “God’s Warriors”. Three episodes were produced, one for Islam, one for Judaism, and one for Christianity (if you can find it, it’s worth the watch).
And enough of all of that and back to the present for a moment, let’s get back to the radicalization issue. There’s no doubt in my mind that many Jewish Israelis feel hate towards the Palestinians, I mean that’s the premise to pretty much all of my points. If the Jewish Israelis hate the Palestinians and the Palestinians hate thy neighbours as well, what we have on our hands is a bunch of radicalized extremists who truly believe that the “Holy Land” is rightfully theirs and they are willing to kill and die for it.
And yet there is another big issue that we haven’t discussed yet, it’s a demographic issue on the Israeli side. The orthodox Jews are growing in numbers, they are currently about 30% of the Israeli population, and as they (for religious reasons) culturally have many more children than your average moderate family (sometimes 10-15), in time they will gain more and more political power and influence, which means that there is a window of opportunity that is slowly fading away.
In addition to the aforementioned issues, there is the undisputable fact that the Palestinian people are living under conditions that create an environment that is ripe for radicalization. With that said, it would seem that the cycle won’t be broken anytime soon, and that matters will only deteriorate as time goes by.
We agree on many things, and I know and except what you’re saying, I just think that it’s important to view the picture in its entirety and not just the opening credits (or the frame, whichever metaphor works better for you).
Not too long ago I was unwilling to accept the Israeli governments’ accountability in this conflict, I can honestly say that I’ve studied and learned a lot since then.
Peace.