Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
You appear to be ok with allowing the Courts to define racial stereotypes. I am not.
|
We were not talking about racial stereotyping. We were talking about inciteful propaganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Tell me, if a Court declares that it is ok to stereotype Jews as being thieves, will you accept their decision? Do you think this will lead to more or fewer people stereotyping Jews as thieves? I am unwilling to give the courts that kind of power. Sorry.
What if the courts decide they arent lies? Does that make my "All Jews are thieves" slander legitimate?
That is why you people are so short sighted...you never consider the possibility that your oppressive rules will be used against you. The sword cuts both ways.
|
That's why I specifically said the courts in free countries. The courts in free countries have demonstrated that they are generally fair. We have a system of checks and balances. Everyone is entitled to representation. The idea that you are permitted a jury of your peers for example, allows people of color & Jews & Indians to have representation. It allows women to have representation on the jury, and the word of a woman is of equal value to that of man. Unlike, for example, in countries that practice Sharia law, where the law does not apply equally to women, Jews or other dhimmis. We have civil rights and human rights laws in Western countries, and so I am happy to put myself under the jurisdiction of American law. If I were not, I would move.
And in a free country, such as the US, even the court decisions can be appealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Um...so even if I have no Indian ancestry, I can still claim to be slandered by someone making fun of Indians?
Doesn't that mean that anyone can claim to be slandered for anything?
|
I thought I already answered that one. Consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner -- this is the kind of identification with the slandered that I am talking about. Or this:
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
This is what I mean by identification with others. It has no legal standing in a courtroom, just in the heart of man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Did it (the Holocaust)happen in America?
|
I suppose this question has a point but it escapes me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Thought policing wont make the prejudice go away. It will just drive it underground.
Europe is experiencing far more racial strife than the US is right now, despite the fact that the US has far fewer restrictions on free speech. Why is that?
|
I am not talking about policing thought. I don't care what people think, just what they say and print.
I think that the racial strife in Europe has to do mainly to the fact that they opened their borders to people (mainly Muslim) who chose not to assimilate within the broader community, and indeed to actively oppose it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by "concheet
One cannot simply say, 'oh well -- these are the casualties of free speech'. One can act as a civil society to deal with such things.
|
We do deal with them....by confronting them in the arena of public opinion.
Thats how we solved our racial problems. We confronted the racists and debunked the myths their racism was based on. Their power has been steadily decreasing in America every generation because of this. |
Again, I was talking of genocide and lynching. One cannot dismiss these things as the casualties of free speech. Acts such as these must have consequences in a court of law. Did you read about Freddie's Clothing Store? If you had read the transcript of the talk a month before you will have read of much incitement, lies and slander against the owner of Freddie's. This incitement caused the death of several people. Wouldn't it have been better to have silenced the free speech that led to these deaths, rather than to merely discuss it later? A number of innocent people would not have been burned to death. Lynchings and genocides may have been avoided if inciteful hateful lies were given a negative consequence rather than a pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by "concheet
If however, someone was claiming that Jews were murdering little Christian boys and making matzoh meal out of them, I think that Jews should have recourse to limiting that person's speech in that regard.
|
If it is so obviously absurd, what are they afraid of? |
So you are saying that you believe that that is
not obviously absurd? What is your point? Jews have been killed in pogroms because of the false rumour that they killed Christian boys to make matzoh meal. You think they should not be afraid of that, particularly in non-Western countries today? Have you listened to the youtube links under my signature? Would you believe that children are taught things like that child is taught?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
By silencing the people who say things you dont like, you give the impression that there is some truth in what they are saying.
|
I am simply requiring that people be held accountable for their words as well as their actions. When some redneck Americans say horrible things about gays and encourage violence and gay-bashing, and when finally some innocent gay person is hurt or killed because of the inciteful speech of another, that person is beyond caring what impression he or she might make. That person is simply dead, and not worrying about the impression he makes on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior
They wont believe it by default. They'd have to have a reason to believe it. By suppressing free speech you are giving them that reason.
|
You don't know what people will or will not believe. People believe lots of things without reason. They believed for years that there were evil women called witches that cast spells on people and so they burned or drowned these people. They believe that adultery is immoral and so they stone these people to death. They believe homosexuality is a perversion and so they execute him. They believe that Jews were controlling the world and were a parasite on the world and so they rounded them up and gassed them. People will believe what they want. If someone doesn't like you for any reason, and makes up bs about you and passes it around-- and there is someone else who dislikes you as well who hears it -- he will doubtless believe it. And when he passes it on to the next guy, the story will make you look even worse than before. The Palestinians do this all the time. They sincerely believe that the Jews are poisoning their wells, giving poison candy to their children, giving their cows mad-cow disease, researching to find medical ways to kill only Arabs...all sorts of bs. They tell each other that and they believe it. Thus they find themselves thoroughly justified when they strap on a bomb to go kill Jews.
One of the casualties of freedom of speech.