Quote:
Originally Posted by raytri
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It actually sits there and is totally different in tense and style. Every verse but this one is narrative. There is not one verse of follow-up on this. If 2 Chronicles was written around 400-450 BC as thought, it was written some 500 years after this narrative, as Asa's reign was ~ 911 BC-870. "The Chronicler (whether one person or a school) viewed himself as an interpreter of the past and used history to make moral points."
[1] It is clear that that is the voice of the Chronicler making his own point.
Also, the implication of your words are that God gave Asa a reward (35 years of peace) in exchange for killing the unbelievers. I don't think the verses uphold your interpretation.
8. And when Asa heard these words and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he strengthened himself and
removed the abominations from all the land of Judah and Benjamin and from the cities that he had captured from Mount Ephraim, and he renewed the altar of the Lord, which was in front of the vestibule of the Lord.
9. And
he gathered all Judah and Benjamin and those dwelling with them from Ephraim and Manasseh and from Simeon, for many of Israel had defected to them when they saw that the Lord their God was with them.
10.
And they gathered to Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of Asa's reign.
11.
And they sacrificed to the Lord on that day of the plunder [that] they brought; cattle, seven hundred, and sheep, seven thousand.
12.
And they entered the covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their forefathers, with all their heart and with all their soul.
13.
And whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, shall be put to death, from the smallest to the greatest, whether man or woman.
14. And they swore to the Lord with a loud voice and with shouting, and with trumpets and with shopharoth.
15.
And all Judah rejoiced over the oath, because they had sworn with all their heart, and they sought Him with all their will, and He was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest from round about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytri
Followed or not, it was a commandment.
I suspect they were executed, to some extent or another, fairly regularly 4,000 years ago. It's not like the social code described there would have been unusual for its time.
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Not a commandment, no way. A narrative written by an unknown Chronicler who put his own moral tags in. God's commandments are generally clear to most religious Jews and killing the unbelievers is simply not included. Here is a list of the 613 Commandments that are required of Jews:
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Well you may suspect these laws were executed with regularity some 4000 years ago by Jews, but you don't have any real evidence of it... no supporting history as far as I know... Maybe they were and maybe they weren't.
While we don't know for sure what Jews did 4000 years ago, what we do know for sure is that there are Muslims today that follow similar rules, and call it Sharia. Saudi Arabia executes people for sexual offenses, Iran stones adulteresses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytri
I agree that modern Jews and Christians ignore such passages. My point is, if Jews and Christians can ignore the hyperviolent commandments of their scripture, why should I believe it's impossible for Muslims to do so?
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I would answer that violence is a much much greater part of the Koran than the Bible. Over and over again Allah excoriates the unbeliever. Another difference with Islam is that Mohamed is seen as the ultimate to emulate, much like Christians believe in emulating Jesus. Mohamed's life is therefore studied as a model of pure behavior. But his life corresponded to his teachings. When a Muslim studies the life of Mohamed he sees a man who raided and plundered, who broke his word, who married girls as young as 7, and who killed those who disagreed with him.
You will not find such a list as these from either the Hebrew Bible or the Christian New Testament. You may find isolated individual comments and remarks that may be interpreted differently, but not
a pattern such as these:
- Koran 9:29
Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
Koran 8:12
Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."
Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Koran 9:73
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.
Koran 4:144
Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?
Koran 47:4
When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.
Koran 5:33-34
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful.
alternate limbs and expelling the Kafirs (people following other religions) out of the land.
Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.
Koran 5:57
Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...
Koran 5:64
The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...
Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.
Koran 9:30
The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth.
Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.
Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'
Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.
Koran 40:67-40:73
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.
Koran 43:74
..The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.
Koran 55:41-52
..That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?
Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire...
Koran 73:12
We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.
Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels...Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men..."
Koran 8:73
The unbelievers give aid and comfort to each other. If you fail to do likewise, there will be disorder in the land and great corruption.
Koran 21:96-21:101
..The unbelievers shall stare in amazement, crying: 'Woe to us! Of this we have been heedless. We have done wrong.' You and your idols shall be the fuel of Hell; therein you all go down.