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Old 08-06-2008, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Justice Strike View Post
so left is right outside america.
Not exactly.
When I think Euro-Liberal I think of the UK Liberal Democrats.
They are further left than the Democratic Party on most social issues and similar to the average Democrat fiscally... maybe slightly to the right. Also the only major party in England against the Iraq war to the extent that the Democrats are.
They are basically what the Democrats would be without the pandering to social conservatives and populists. They can only exist because Labour Party takes those elements as its own... Of course the LibDems never win either.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2008, 05:23 AM
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SpankyTheWhale View Post
I am not sure whether that terminology changes as well.
ok, so left is left, but liberal is right and conservative is left, while in america it's that the liberals are left and the conservatives are right. Or am i mistaken and should it be the democrats who are right outside america and the replublicans who are right inside america?

Last edited by Justice Strike; 08-06-2008 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Justice Strike View Post
ok, so left is left, but liberal is right and conservative is left, while in america it's that the liberals are left and the conservatives are right. Or am i mistaken and should it be the democrats who are right outside america and the replublicans who are right inside america?
Democrat and Republican are uniquely American parties, but the rest of what you said is roughly accurate.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SpankyTheWhale View Post
Democrat and Republican are uniquely American parties, but the rest of what you said is roughly accurate.
actually the term democrat and republican is also used outside of the USA, but basicly your saying that they have no link.

actually in europe, a republican is someone who is pro republic (ie. with one chosen head of state) a democrat is someone who is for a chosen party.

Last edited by Justice Strike; 08-06-2008 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Justice Strike View Post
ok, so left is left, but liberal is right and conservative is left, while in america it's that the liberals are left and the conservatives are right. Or am i mistaken and should it be the democrats who are right outside america and the replublicans who are right inside america?
To put it more simply the Democratic Party in the US... what US use as the compass for liberalism... is a combination of the usual European liberal party and the usual European
labo(u)r/socialist party.
As such the Democrats are right of the average left-wing party and more populist than the average liberal party.
The Republicans on the other hand are a mix of conservatives and the furthest right of Euro-liberals, and as such are right of the average conservative party or liberal party.

All in all, there was a video on the Economist website showing that on most issues most Americans (conservative or liberal) are to the right of the British (who are far from being the most left-wing of European countries)... and it appeared to me that the Democrats matched up most closely with the LibDems.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
To put it more simply the Democratic Party in the US... what US use as the compass for liberalism... is a combination of the usual European liberal party and the usual European
labo(u)r/socialist party.
the way i see it is that the labour/socialist parties are nearly not represented in the american 2 party system

Quote:
As such the Democrats are right of the average left-wing party and more populist than the average liberal party.
The Republicans on the other hand are a mix of conservatives and the furthest right of Euro-liberals, and as such are right of the average conservative party or liberal party.
ok so left is left and right is right, the same outside america as inside america

Quote:
All in all, there was a video on the Economist website showing that on most issues most Americans (conservative or liberal) are to the right of the British (who are far from being the most left-wing of European countries)... and it appeared to me that the Democrats matched up most closely with the LibDems.
yes, that's what i thought.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Justice Strike View Post
the way i see it is that the labour/socialist parties are nearly not represented in the american 2 party system
Well... it depends.
Not so much real socialists. And these days the unions are losing power...
But I think they do lean a little more toward short-term "relief" type programs that I see as more populist than liberal.

As I understand liberals they (unlike our right-wingers) believe in using Keynsian economics to a certain extent and use of the welfare state provided it is efficient and well-targeted... but are not protectionist in international trade and frown upon short-term "solutions".
When liberals push "fair trade" measures, it's about making sure the third world is developed rather than exploited and that no human rights are violated.

The Democrats have a larger protectionist wing that has a more nationalist sentiment ("fair trade" is more about protecting American jobs than third world exploited) and have a tendency (due mostly to the political necessity) of backing a lot of short-term relief subsidies that can have detrimental effects. In this sense the labour elements have representation.

But I think that when people claim the liberals elsewhere are "opposite" American liberals they have some wrong-headed assumption that liberals are "pro-business". As I understand it, liberals are most concerned with human rights and view free markets simply as the best way to ensure a capacity for protecting them... and are willing to bring in government where the private sector fails.
Our conservatives (albeit some Republicans could be considered liberals) are pro-business and break down government programs primarily to relieve the businesses of taxes, without regard for the actual effects- often downplaying the importance of public programs.

I can't imagine a European liberal backing the Republicans.
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
"Fox News in the most watched News Network, with the highest viewer rating! That means people turn to it for fair and balanced news coverage over all others."

If we're to use this logic, we'd be assuming that quantity is a fair indicator of quality in any instance. It asserts that the number of viewers, regardless of the circumstance that causes someone to watch something, properly measures the amount of valid information to be absorbed. Therein lies the flaw, or even the credibility of such a claim. For Instance:

Who is able to fill more seats during campaign rallies/functions?

Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain?

If we're to use the Fox News logic (of more viewers meaning quality info) then Sen. Obama's stadiums pummel McCains town halls, no? I've seen some on this forum who favor McCain & swear by Fox News... claiming the above statement in red whenever the network comes into question. Therefore, I ask this:


If tons more people attending Obama events don't matter.... why do tons more people watching Fox mean anything?
I have heard this fallacious argument ("Fox News in the most watched News Network, with the highest viewer rating! That means people turn to it for fair and balanced news coverage over all others") many times before. The logic is just as fallacious as it ever was. High viewer rating is NOT an indicator of "balance."
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Strike View Post
tell me what the difference between a liberal in the USA and outside the USA
Point made^^^ I told you he doesn't know the difference.
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