Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
Sure, okay... so the prochoice don't see a fetus as a viable life.
|
Depending on how far along the pregnancy is, yes and no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
By viable, I mean "it has rights, cause it thinks and feels" viable.
|
A fetus doesn't think, as it isn't capable of thinking - not even a newborn baby is capable of thinking, the brain hasn't developed enough. It can feel pain, but not emotion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
They see a fetus as a plant, a plant doesn't feel or think, it just is. That's bassicaly how a choicer sees a fetus.
|
I don't equate a fetus to a plant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
Now, whether or not that is correct is irrelevant, sense unlike a plant, a fetus will become viable, even if it isn't viable right now.
|
The matter is whether the woman chooses to allow that fetus to become viable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
By the same token, if choicers think people only have rights in the now, then an intoxciated woman should be able to be raped. Because she's at a less viable state, thus her basic rights are lowerd to a more suitable standard correct?
|
Rape is a criminal offence - abortion isn't, and therefore has nothing to do with abortion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
When she awakens, then she has a right not to be raped. But untill then, she is more like a doll. Completely unaware of her sorroundings. You would then have to argue if we had a right to put people into that state. (Such as roofies)
|
At risk of going off topic here, I will say that women who go out and choose to drink, and happen to get drunk, are partially responsible for what may happen to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
The question should be not when life begins, but when do rights begin, what kind of rights, and to what extent they have to practice these rights.
Do people have a right to create life?
Do people have right to destroy life?
|
No one, not the woman, anyway, sets out to 'create' a pregnancy. When she has sex, she has no way of knowing whether that will result in pregnancy. If it does, it's just bad luck.
Do people have the right to create life? Depends on who is doing the creating.
Do people have the right to destroy life? Depends on who is doing the destroying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
What gives them these rights? How did they earn them? And if they are inherited, shouldn't a child, regardless of it's stage of development earn that most basic right which is life too?
|
Everyone has rights. Everyone receives rights when they are born. A newborn baby has more rights than a fetus, because the fetus is born. That's just the way it is.
A woman is entitled to more rights than he fetus because the fetus resides in her body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
Life is the first right, period. You cannot have rights unless you're alive to have them.
|
Something the size of a kidney bean should not be given rights. People are not afforded rights when they are 'alive', and by this I assume you mean conception. People are only given rights when they are born, and for the most part, I believe that is the way it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
So we can pretty much say if a fetus can die, then a fetus has no rights.
|
We're not saying that at all. All we are saying, is that as long as that fetus is inside the mothers body, it has no rights, as she is only person who can grant the fetus rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
What grants women such a right to have an abortion? And when you can define where that right is, shouldn't then her right be based on circumstance?
|
As above. A woman has the right to an abortion for as long as the fetus resides within her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
I'm told all the time about how I think in absolutes, and yet all I ever hear is "my body; my choice". How immature and reactionary...
|
The 'My Body, My Choice' arguement is simply a way of saying that we have the right to do what we like with our own bodies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
Because if it wasn't your choice to have sex, then what makes it your choice to have an abortion? (Thus the rape case is debunked)
|
As above once again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
If it is your choice to have an abortion, then why don't we get to abort other non-viable people? Why stop at fetuses? Why not disabled people or the elderly?
|
The elderly, if they are still concious and aware, are deserving of all the rights of anyone else.
The disabled however, is different. I believe in the termination of some disabled people, concious or not. (think Terri Schivio for this one) It does depend on the disabiltity, and the severity of that disability, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
Most importantly, what do you think is the worst that could happen if abortion was banned?
|
Women would resort to back alley abortions. Women would resort to using a knitting needle to terminate their pregnancies. Sheer desperation would drive someone to risk their lives like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
All I ever hear is clothshanger deaths. How many deaths? Considering if abortion remains legal the death ratio is 1:1+X IE: the tradeoff is the mother vs whatever offspring she feels like aborting.
|
I'm not 100% sure whether the clotheshanger has actually eithor been used to perform an illegal abortion, or whether it is simply a symbol of the pro choice movement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
I couldn't tell you how large the sum of X is, but I can tell you this: More people die from legal abortions then illegal abortions. Your only argument is that more viable people die from illegal abortions.
|
I'd like to see stats on this, please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
But by that time all those inviables are now viable. Making the argument null and void. A fetus is not a thing, it's a person, and a person has a right to grow and develop inside the mother's womb. The mother made a binding contract with her child the moment she had sex, that she would take on the natural responsibilities asscosiated with motherhood.
|
The woman has no idea that sex that night would lead to pregnancy. Sure, it's a risk, but she still didn't know she'd get pregnant right then, did she?
As I have previously said, a fetus is entitled to rights only if the mother chooses to give it rights. If she doesn't, the fetus is not entitled to anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koga
If she cannot take on these responsibilities, then she's apparently not a human being. Dogs are the ones we spaye and neuder because we cannot rely on them to control themselves. Are the prochoice telling me they have no control over their actions and need to be treated like pets?
|
Of course not. We all make choices, and while I don't like the fact that so many abortions seem to occur because the woman was irresponsible in using contraception, it isn't my place to tell her what she should do with her body. It's her choice, and her choice alone.
I believe everyone should be entitled to choice.
__________________
The woman in my avatar is Cristina Scabbia and the woman in my profile picture is Tarja Turunen
Sun flames and moons glow, timeless the tides will flow, what will I face, what will be mine, fortune and fate the other side...
I'm a Tarte! What! You Want Somma This?
|