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Originally Posted by White Fox
So the founder and inventor, the very definition of fascism, the tyrannical Mussolini, is a rare exception to fascism?!?!  So the very principles that define fascism which I have listed some of here, are not fascist?!?! It seems like a socialist would be considered leftist, but you seem to be defining the right wing as nationalist. |
He didn't invent an ideology, he was only the first to adopt it. He just combined the ideas of authoritarianism with conservatism, and some others who followed did the same. Then the Political Scientists defined what it was and then you have fascism. They clearly identified the principles of it and associated it with the extreme right. I am not saying Mussolini fit the definition perfectly, but he favoured corporatism over state-ownership, he was conservative in that he staunchly defended traditional values, and he supported militarism, which generally has been a right-wing pursuit.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Franco was a pragmatist, even more so than Mussolini. He recognized that the majority of Spaniards did not want expropriation of lands or the destruction of the Catholic Church. He therefore supported them so that he could maintain power.
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Exactly, he adhered to fascism more closely.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Nationalization of any industry is left wing. Protectionism is left wing. Free market capitalism is right wing.
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Yet right wingers like Alexander Hamilton advocated for protectionism and nationalism in the US. Bolstering economic independence by denying access of foreign imperialists from exploiting your resources is a right-wing pursuit. Even today, right-wingers in the US are generally against the free-movement of labour, which is opposed to what Adam Smith advocates. Italy, Spain, and Germany were simply doing what the US did centuries earlier, protect their industries, although they did it in an undemocratic way. Liberals, like Adam Smith, are the ones that believe in free-trade and liberal immigration, because it supports their idea of global cooperation.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
How do you define left wing and right wing?
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I would just classify them as groups of ideologies with similar core ideas.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Franco was much more inline with the traditional Catholic values.
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Mussolini used Catholicism extensively as well.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
So a right wing concept and a far right wing concept are complete and total opposites. I understand now.  |
No, the more extreme you get in either direction, the left or the right, the more authoritarian you get. Nothing else changes except the amount of government control.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Then how are Mussolini and Hitler not left-wingers? And protecting industries from foreign competition is a very left wing concept. Right wingers support the free market and free trade globally.
Left wingers founded nationalism, and they were the most extreme in it.
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Most left-wingers support free-trade globally as well. Only the extreme left, communists, believe that the means of production must be protected. Look at most Islamic countries, they won't let western products in because of the negative effect it would have on their culture. They are protectionist not because they are scared of competition, but because they are protecting their culture which is what conservatives do. Fascist countries took the same approach, they didn't want imperialist values of other countries to challenge their own. When you limit trade to protect your culture, its a right-wing/conservative approach.
Right-wingers founded nationalism as a way to assert traditional values as national values. Left-wingers believe in multiculturalism, secularism, and progress, beliefs that have nothing to do with nationalism.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
There are many differences between National Socialism and Fascism, racism being the main difference. But they were both socialist regimes in their essence, and last time I checked that was a left-wing opinion. Communism is essentially international socialism, fascism is national socialism (with small letters).
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Except national socialists despised communists. You think if they had anything in common they would reconcile.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
You seem to be focusing on Franco a lot. Let me remind you that fascism is defined by Mussolini, who was a socialist.
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Fascism is defined by political scientists, not Mussolini. Mussolini found a new ideology, basically by combining existing ideologies. Franco ran a much more successful fascist state than Mussolini, so its probably worth noting him.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Yes they are violent, but many on the left would have us believe that that is a good thing if it brings a better society to come into being.
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Its hard to say. Leftist revolutionaries generally destroy all trace of traditional institutions, its a complete overhaul. Fascists are definately revolutionaries, but since they maintain most traditional values and institutions, like religion, the monarchy, the economic system and legal system, its probably less of a blood bath.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
Right-wingers are inherently anti-monopoly, and an aligned interest between corporations and the government is a monopoly. Right wingers support free trade. Mussolini knew that the workers could never unite them as a class to overthrow capitalist oppression, so he chose to unite them as a nation to overthrow capitalist oppression. It was, as he called it, "socialism of the trenches." Once again, you focus on Franco.
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And he did overthrown capitalist oppression. But corporations are a capitalist creation, the are the heart of greed, and he never eliminated them. He maintained them because he knew that they could produce more efficiently than the state. The only reason the government remained involved was to protect national security and culture. Thus you also had a nationalization of select sectors.
And you ignore Franco, who has governed much longer than Hitler and Mussolini combined.
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Originally Posted by White Fox
The Nazis were not socially conservative. The Fascists were not socially conservative. Franco was. None of them were economically neutral by any sense of the word.
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I agree the Nazis were not socially conservative. They believed in things like eugenics which were inconsistent with the mandates of the church. Franco and Mussolini were definately socially conservative. They followed the church closely and they resisted changes in culture.
Economically, Spain and Italy were pretty neutral. Germany a little less so. While the Soviet Union was collapsing on itself from socialism in the 1950s - 1970s, Spain was having a booming economy which was on of the best in the world. If it was not neutral, or close to neutral, it would have collapsed in the same way. Yet it didn't.