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Originally Posted by Wildbore
He didn't invent an ideology, he was only the first to adopt it. He just combined the ideas of authoritarianism with conservatism, and some others who followed did the same. Then the Political Scientists defined what it was and then you have fascism. They clearly identified the principles of it and associated it with the extreme right. I am not saying Mussolini fit the definition perfectly, but he favoured corporatism over state-ownership, he was conservative in that he staunchly defended traditional values, and he supported militarism, which generally has been a right-wing pursuit.
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Mussolini did invent fascism. It was his creation. He defined it first with the statement "everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." Later, he gave a more explicit definition that included the point that I gave earlier and more. You can look them up. He took the socialist movement and made it nationalistic. He did not combine it with conservatism at the time. The social conservative climate was one of capitalism and the elite of the golden age. Mussolini despised these conservatives.
You fail to understand that fascism is Mussolini's movement. He invented it, he defined it, he was the definition. So to say that he did not fit the definition is to change the definition itself. You also fail to recognize that
corporatism is state ownership. You say he supported militarism, which generally had been a right wing pursuit. Does that make Stalin, FDR, Wilson, Castro, Chavez, the Vietcong, the French Revolutionaries, Napoleon, and Kim Jong-Ill of North Korea (which has the highest military budget per capita in the world) all right wingers? It seems your definition falls apart here, while mine is consistent.
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Exactly, he adhered to fascism more closely.
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Mussolini was pure fascist by definition. His definition.
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Yet right wingers like Alexander Hamilton advocated for protectionism and nationalism in the US. Bolstering economic independence by denying access of foreign imperialists from exploiting your resources is a right-wing pursuit.
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Very well. I will explain this. In
The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith outlines the principles of capitalism, which include free trade. He had recognized that tariffs and protectionism had generally made all the countries that used them worse off then they would be without them. However, protectionist tariffs do have one valid purpose.
This purpose is to help industry develop to the point where it can actually compete in the world market. Without this development of industry, a country would not be able to build its own resources because it would not be profitable. You say that denying access of foreign imperialists from exploiting your resources is a right-wing pursuit? Think about what nation in the world adheres to this the most. Still thinking? Try North Korea, the bastion of a perfected right-wing government of course.
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Even today, right-wingers in the US are generally against the free-movement of labour, which is opposed to what Adam Smith advocates. Italy, Spain, and Germany were simply doing what the US did centuries earlier, protect their industries, although they did it in an undemocratic way. Liberals, like Adam Smith, are the ones that believe in free-trade and liberal immigration, because it supports their idea of global cooperation.
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I have gone through labor unions quite thoroughly on this thread. You don't have to read all the posts, just mine.
Why Labor Unions Should Be Illegal
And let it be noted that Adam Smith is considered to be one of the three founders of the modern conservative movement in America. Even liberals and Marxists recognize this. The only debate that anyone has is whether or not they are right-wing, which, I would consider them to be.
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I would just classify them as groups of ideologies with similar core ideas.
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Seems to me like the only difference between Communism and Fascism is whether or not the it is national or international. So why are they on opposite ends of the spectrum. I at least have clear definitions of left and right.
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Mussolini used Catholicism extensively as well.
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Yes, he pretty much took control of the church. But it was his life long dream to destroy it, and he probably would have done so if he was not in Italy.
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No, the more extreme you get in either direction, the left or the right, the more authoritarian you get. Nothing else changes except the amount of government control.
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So the extreme right wing is just more authoritarian capitalist free market?
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Most left-wingers support free-trade globally as well. Only the extreme left, communists, believe that the means of production must be protected. Look at most Islamic countries, they won't let western products in because of the negative effect it would have on their culture. They are protectionist not because they are scared of competition, but because they are protecting their culture which is what conservatives do. Fascist countries took the same approach, they didn't want imperialist values of other countries to challenge their own. When you limit trade to protect your culture, its a right-wing/conservative approach.
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THAT IS INSANE. Just like Obama and Clinton support free-trade globally. Let's get one thing straight,
conservatives support free trade, extreme conservatives support anarchy because there are no restrictions. Most Islamic countries are fascist. Most are left-wing radical countries. Iran has a radical government.
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Right-wingers founded nationalism as a way to assert traditional values as national values.
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The French revolution founded nationalism. No sane person on earth can call the French Revolution right-wing. Your argument is therefore factually erroneous and therefore invalid.
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Left-wingers believe in multiculturalism, secularism, and progress, beliefs that have nothing to do with nationalism.
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These are the Marxists beliefs of the new left, which are farther left than fascism, but fascism is still a left-wing movement.
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Except national socialists despised communists. You think if they had anything in common they would reconcile.
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Seems to me that the Iranians and the conservatives in America (which, according to you, have much in common), would not despise one another under this logic. Fascists and Communists competed for the same, working class revolutionary support, and they fought over it because they were violent and militant movements.
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Fascism is defined by political scientists, not Mussolini. Mussolini found a new ideology, basically by combining existing ideologies. Franco ran a much more successful fascist state than Mussolini, so its probably worth noting him.
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You are just refusing to acknowledge that Mussolini invented it, defined it, and embodied it.
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Its hard to say. Leftist revolutionaries generally destroy all trace of traditional institutions, its a complete overhaul. Fascists are definately revolutionaries, but since they maintain most traditional values and institutions, like religion, the monarchy, the economic system and legal system, its probably less of a blood bath.
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Not even Franco did these things. Who was monarch under him, I wonder. What economic system did they have before, what economic system did they have after. What legal system did they have before, what legal system did they have after. The Spanish Civil war was a complete blood bath.
Hitler and Mussolini wanted to get rid of all these things, would you at least admit that they are left wing if you think they are not fascist?
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And he did overthrown capitalist oppression. But corporations are a capitalist creation, the are the heart of greed, and he never eliminated them. He maintained them because he knew that they could produce more efficiently than the state. The only reason the government remained involved was to protect national security and culture. Thus you also had a nationalization of select sectors.
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Corporations are a capitalist creation. Monopolies are not a capitalist creation. Corporatists and capitalists are opposites. I think you are also under the impression that big business leaders took over the government. Wrong, the state created monopolies in order to control everything. You say that the state only existed to protect national security and culture. Wrong.
In Fascism, as Mussolini defined it "everything is in the state, nothing is outside the state, nothing is against the state.
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And you ignore Franco, who has governed much longer than Hitler and Mussolini combined.
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Mussolini invented, defined, and embodied fascism.
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I agree the Nazis were not socially conservative. They believed in things like eugenics which were inconsistent with the mandates of the church. Franco and Mussolini were definately socially conservative. They followed the church closely and they resisted changes in culture.
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If you were to read any of Mussolini's books such as
Man and Divinity or
Jan Hus the Truthful, you would get a pretty accurate idea of what he wanted to do to the church.