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View Poll Results: Should power of executive branch be reduced?
Yes 17 56.67%
No 13 43.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2008, 10:45 AM
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I don't agree with the OP as stated. What I do agree with is a reduction in Presidential power, especially in terms of spying on American citizens. That crap needs to stop.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2008, 11:00 AM
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I voted YES, on CONDITION that they cite reasons for putting the expulsion of the president to a vote; that show he's in violation of laws governing office; as Kucinich has done.
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrot View Post
I think the official reason why impeachment wasn't pursued was because it's a long and expensive process, and they didn't want to be accused by the Republicans for wasting time and money that could be better spent on other things.

Getting the 2/3 Senate majority necessary to remove Bush from office would've been near impossible anyway.
Not if members of Congress actually took their oath seriously.

The violations of the US Constitution by the Bush adminstration are very easy to prove and there would be no doubt about his guilt. The problem would be the same as with Clinton except it would be the Republicans this time violating the oath they take to judge the evidence of the case as opposed to voting based upon political agendas.

When will our elected members of Congress take their oath to defend and uphold the Constitution seriously?
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
Two major points.

First of all it is the House of Representatives assigned role to determine if a crime was probably committed and if that crime warrants the status of "High Crimes and Misdomeanors" which justifies removal from office. That is what the "impeachment" by the House means. It is an indictment for a crime which warrants removal from office. Certainly perjury and obstruction of justice, which are both felonies, justify removal from office. The fact that a felony was committed related to a "blow job" is not a consideration as only the commission of the felony is important to the case. Did Clinton commit these felonies? Yes. Did the Democrats in the Senate violate their oath to judge the case based upon the evidence? Yes. That's what's important.

Second point is that it was a special prosecutor appointed by a Democratic Justice Department which lead to the impeachment and not the Republicans. The idea that this was a Republican conspiracy is a fallacy contradicted by the facts and, in fact, many Republicans in the House voted against several of the articles of impeachment believing them to be unsupported by the evidence.
Let me try to frame this another way. Let's say Bill Clinton was your average Joe instead. Hillary takes him to divorce court and accuses him of having an affair. Bill naturally lies and commits perjury. It is later proven in court that Bill lied. Let's say that the jury gives the proper verdict and punishment on the divorce issues, but for some reason the penalty for perjury is life in prison. Bill is technically guilty, but is the original crime he committed worthy of a life sentence? As a member of the jury I would vote him "not guilty" of perjury, even though he clearly was. Or suggest a much lighter sentence for the perjury charge if that is an option.

Bill having to go home to Hillary would have been punishment enough in my opinion, find something more worthy to impeach him on than lying about an affair.

Finally, who determines whether an offense is impeachable or not? According to Wikipedia, it's Congress:

"In the United States, impeachment can occur both at the federal and state level. The Constitution defines impeachment at the federal level and limits impeachment to "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States" who may only be impeached and removed for "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors." [2]. Several commentators have suggested that Congress alone may decide for itself what constitutes an impeachable offense."

Though if the President was discovered to be a sexual predator I would hope that Congress would remove him, regardless of party affiliation.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:17 PM
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Shiva, don't hold your breath.

As to what constitutes an impeachable-offense: imho, it is the Congress that determines what's impeachable.
The constitution says that the president MUST be removed if convicted of high-crimes. It doesn't say a president can't be removed for lesser crimes.

The Constitution really doesn't allow the president to defy a 2/3 Senate vote for removal, regardless of the reasons -though in-theory, I suppose, the Supreme Court could rule a removal unconstitutional. The case would have to be extremely frivolous for that to happen, though, and the president very popular -in which case you wouldn't get the 2/3 majority anyway, so that would never happen.

Btw, concerning the cost of Impeachment: I've heard it's costly, but I don't think it is, really -unless you mean costly in time and labor.
You'd have to gather the evidence, and present it, and while hearings continue it detracts from the time Congress has for passing legislation, which (though it might be costly to some people) I wouldn't consider a drawback.

Last edited by Carrot; 11-17-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurk_moar View Post
Let me try to frame this another way. Let's say Bill Clinton was your average Joe instead. Hillary takes him to divorce court and accuses him of having an affair. Bill naturally lies and commits perjury. It is later proven in court that Bill lied. Let's say that the jury gives the proper verdict and punishment on the divorce issues, but for some reason the penalty for perjury is life in prison. Bill is technically guilty, but is the original crime he committed worthy of a life sentence? As a member of the jury I would vote him "not guilty" of perjury, even though he clearly was. Or suggest a much lighter sentence for the perjury charge if that is an option.

Bill having to go home to Hillary would have been punishment enough in my opinion, find something more worthy to impeach him on than lying about an affair.
There woulde be no reason for "Joe" (Bill) to lie in court. There wasn't a mandatory requirement for any testimony and, of course, if "Joe" was an attorney I would say that it is a very serious offense worthy of criminal penalties and being dis-barred. While an average Joe may not understand the seriousness of perjury that cannot be said of an attorney. Certainly the President of the United States should also be held to a higher standard than the average Joe.

Of course a divorce is not heard by a jury

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurk_moar View Post
Finally, who determines whether an offense is impeachable or not? According to Wikipedia, it's Congress:

"In the United States, impeachment can occur both at the federal and state level. The Constitution defines impeachment at the federal level and limits impeachment to "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States" who may only be impeached and removed for "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors." [2]. Several commentators have suggested that Congress alone may decide for itself what constitutes an impeachable offense."
Impeachment happens in the House of Representatives and it is the House which determines whether there is evidence that a crime was committed and if it meets the requirements for removal from office. The Senate hears the case, acts as the jury, and determines if the crime was committed by the person. The Senate does not determine whether the crime meets the criteria as being an impeachable offense because that has already been determined by the House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurk_moar View Post
Though if the President was discovered to be a sexual predator I would hope that Congress would remove him, regardless of party affiliation.
I believe that commiting a felony, any felony, is justification for removal from office. If the President can commit a felony and get away with then what happens to the 14th Amendment that requires equal protection under the law. Can anyone now commit perjury and obstruction of justice without fear of prosecution? Why should an average Joe be convicted while a President goes free of any punishment?
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:49 PM
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This is so flawed I'm shocked that it has gotten as many votes in the poll as it has. I could see reducing the President's power, but giving congress the ability to remove him through majority vote is a dumb idea plan and simple. It might actually work too well and render the presidency nearly powerless to congressional whims.

The Lewinski scandal is proof of that this wouldn't work. Clinton had a 60% approval rating or higher at the time and only 1/3 of Americans supported the impeachment measure. Nonetheless due to partisanship the Republicans still went on with the impeachment.

Clearly partisan politics have gotten to the point where at least one party is more then willing to remove a president of the opposite party over even the smallest of transgressions for shear partisan reasons. This would not work.

Last edited by rodog; 11-17-2008 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
There woulde be no reason for "Joe" (Bill) to lie in court. There wasn't a mandatory requirement for any testimony and, of course, if "Joe" was an attorney I would say that it is a very serious offense worthy of criminal penalties and being dis-barred. While an average Joe may not understand the seriousness of perjury that cannot be said of an attorney. Certainly the President of the United States should also be held to a higher standard than the average Joe.

Of course a divorce is not heard by a jury



Impeachment happens in the House of Representatives and it is the House which determines whether there is evidence that a crime was committed and if it meets the requirements for removal from office. The Senate hears the case, acts as the jury, and determines if the crime was committed by the person. The Senate does not determine whether the crime meets the criteria as being an impeachable offense because that has already been determined by the House.



I believe that commiting a felony, any felony, is justification for removal from office. If the President can commit a felony and get away with then what happens to the 14th Amendment that requires equal protection under the law. Can anyone now commit perjury and obstruction of justice without fear of prosecution? Why should an average Joe be convicted while a President goes free of any punishment?
All I'm saying is the crime should fit the punishment. If you believe that Clinton's offense was worthy of impeachment, that's your opinion. I personally don't.

As for the part in red I know that, I was just trying to frame the situation so you could see my point of view. Can't have Bill committing murder because then the jury would have had a valid reason to sentence him to life in prison regardless of the perjury charge.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrot View Post
Uh, 27 States?? Well, I certainly wouldn't want to attend YOUR civics class.
Read my last post, which includes a quote from the Constitution saying that THREE FOURTHS of the States are required in order to ratify an amendment. 3/4 of 50 is 38.

Line-item-veto was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court during the Clinton administration. Bush's signing-statements were just the item-veto under a different name.
Your are correct,thanks for catching my typo. As far as line-item veto,the current court would find differently ,I'm sure.
In any case,in this age of hidden agendas (and PORK), latched onto the bellies of otherwise good legislation like leeches, the LINE ITEM VETO is a valuable tool that our elected Chief Executive could use to protect our interests from the Games on the Hill.
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodog View Post
<snip> It might actually work too well and render the presidency nearly powerless to congressional whims.

The Lewinski scandal is proof of that this wouldn't work. Clinton had a 60% approval rating or higher at the time and only 1/3 of Americans supported the impeachment measure. Nonetheless due to partisanship the Republicans still went on with the impeachment.

Clearly partisan politics have gotten to the point where at least one party is more then willing to remove a president of the opposite party over even the smallest of transgressions for shear partisan reasons. This would not work.
You'd still need 60 Senate votes because of the filibuster, so I don't think it would work TOO well.
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