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Originally Posted by Southpaw
I said that the surge was working. That means the tactics we adopted are achieving the short term goals we wanted
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Excuse me, but the "surge" is over. Done. Finito. Please pay attention!
The stated goal of the "surge" (an egregious misuse of the word that easily-duped warhawks were happy to ignore) was to provide the “breathing space” for political reconciliation to occur. In that political reconciliation did not occur, it would appear that the "surge"
didn't work. And let's don't forget that we've got approximately 18,000 more troops there now -
after the "surge" - than we did before the "surge." If it worked so well, why do we need 18,000 MORE troops in Iraq post-"surge?"
The stated goal of the 18 benchmarks was to gauge "success in Iraq." In that those 18 benchmarks have not been met, it would appear that actual "success in Iraq" cannot be claimed, or even hinted at (despite such attempts by right-wing war lovers).
As for "success in Iraq:"
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In remarks made Wednesday to the Associated General Contractors of America, President Bush defined his view of the success in Iraq that he hopes to accomplish.
"Either we'll succeed, or we won't succeed," he said. "And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not no violence." While saying "succeed," Bush appears to chuckle.
The president then compared Iraq to the United States, saying that there were parts of the US with "a certain level of violence," but that "people feel comfortable about living their daily lives" in those areas. That level of violence, said Bush, is what the US is aiming to achieve in Iraq.
At a White House Press Briefing later in the day Suzanne Malveaux of CNN asked Press Secretary Tony Snow to clarify what would constitute an "acceptable level of violence."
"That's a very good question," replied Snow. "I don't have an answer."
Q If the President is using that as an example of saying that the Iraqis, if they find a certain level of violence that is acceptable, that's defined now as success?
MR. SNOW: Yes
Q How do you define an acceptable level of violence? I mean, how can that possibly be defined?
MR. SNOW: That's a very good question. I don't have an answer. --The Raw Story
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So, let's hear YOUR idea of acceptable levels of violence. Is yours any more definitive than the non-answer offered by the White House?
Realistically, the only legitimate gauge of how much violence is acceptable in Iraq should come from an Iraqi, don't you think? Or do you know more about violence in Iraq than those Iraqis directly affected by it?
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Does that mean the entire thing has been a success? No, it does not. It just means the surge is working.
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From the OP, it would appear that Iraq remains a very violent place. (Once again, the "surge" is over. Please try to keep up!)
When I asked:
Where do we get the authority to insist that another country adopt OUR form of government? you responded with a non-answer:
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Our form of government is working rather well, all things considered. It is certainly much better than the government Saddam had.
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Would you mind actually answering the question posed? Thanks.
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The fact that the Iraqis went through with their own elections
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What option did they have? We invaded and occupied their country. People with guns and bombs (us) TOLD them they were going to have a democracy, and WE set up the "election." Beyond this, there haven‘t been any
provincial elections, so I guess they're not all
that excited about participating in a democratic form of government.
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we started a process which would yield horrible results if it were left in the middle and not finished.
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Ah, you're able to read the future! Please send the next winning lottery numbers to me via PM!
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Go look up what the tactics in the surge were and what they demanded in terms of troop levels.
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The true tactic behind the "surge" was to
escalate our involvement in Iraq. There are more troops there now - after the surge has ended - than there were before it began. By that measure, and ONLY by that measure, the "surge" was a success - Mr. Bush got more of our young men and women to put their lives on the line to bolster his tiny little ego and keep feeding his love for war (and oil).
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I'm not confident that I'm discussing this with a well informed person.
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Join the club.
