A person's unconsciousness does not justify killing. ESPECIALLY if they have about a 99% chance of becoming conscious very soon.

You silly "corpse is a stage of life" is absurd. >LIFE< hello? A fetus actually has more potential than any other life you would want to take.

To make this lack-of-consciousness to be a good reason for taking life is absurd. When someone becomes a vegetable the only way they can have their life forfeited is to haven chosen that way...and even then they must be found to have no possible way of recovering. When you kill a fetus, you are the one preventing them from gaining consciousness which they absolutely would do if you wouldn't kill them.

That would be the decent thing to do, unless I'm the only one here who would rather be given away as a child than killed.

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

Sorry to disappoint, but I believe this talking point should be dropped by the pro-choice side. I mean, if the procedure is banned by the government and made illegal, why should we care if the mother hurts herself doing the procedure? We told her not to do it and she broke the law anyway.

Thats it in a nutshell there. Potential life. A fetus has no life at that point in time....none. It has never been outside the womb, never experienced touch, hearing, sight, pain, or even conciousness. It is merely a shell that will eventually become a human being.

This is quite different. That person HAS a consciousness and life...they are merely unconscious at the present time.

Only if you view it as murder. As I see it, the choices are stop a child from being born or giving it away as a puppy. Giving it away doesn't seem decent from my eyes, but everyone should have their own choice in thier matter.

i thought the main arguement against abortion was that it was murder? thus making this an important arguement, because the mother is now killing herself and the baby.

by saying why should we care is only reinforcing the statement and its validity. if the government thinks that abortions are just going to stop and never happen again if made illegal then they need to rethink their stance on the issue. if you believe that its not important that there are going to be more deaths from people attempting abortions themselves and going to unlicensed doctors for the procedure then you obviously didnt understand the reasoning behind it being made legal in the first place

thats why i don't understand the pro life side....baning abortions won't make them stop happening...it'll only cause more deaths

Well, her killing the baby would still be important. I was talking about the pro-choice crowd lamenting the death of a coat-hanger women if abortion is banned.

The reason it was legalized in the first place was privacy laws. Its not the governments business what someone does as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Deaths of aborting mothers...murderers in their eyes. They don't care if they die, just as they cheer for the death penalty for other murderers.

I agree with entsetzen on this one. I fear that if the pro-life ever manage to overturn Roe they'll simply call it the end and walk away. Meanwhile the issues will still exist and the causes of abortion will only be ignored. Just like the war on drugs.
That's why I think we should keep abortion legal until we can solve the more difficult problems. As long as abortion is legal, the issue will be on the table. If it becomes illegal, nothing will be solved other than in a symbolic way and the issue will no longer be on the table.

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"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

You have a real problem delineating time. It continually hurts your argument. A fetus does have a brain and brain waves. Does it have a “formed brain” or “brain waves” as you say? No. Not at day 1 or 2 or 5 or 10, etc. But it does at some point during gestation. So again, your statement is incorrect.


You initially stated that to be a human being required 3 criteria…1) Consciousness 2) Ability to survive on their own and 3) Not resemble a blob. That was later changed to just “consciousness”. Then the first onset of brain waves was included in your definition. I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m just taking what you have provided us in your posts and trying to make sense of it. It’s difficult when you change your mind all the time. Here is your opportunity to tell us all what your official “offspring13” definition of life is…oh, and give us the exact day of gestation that a human becomes a “real” human or whatever you call it.


Right, if you are splicing flowers or fruit trees. The consequences of abortion are obviously more significant.

Wait. At what stage of fetal development are you talking about? Are you saying that a fetus is never considered a “human entity”? Because a fetus does at some point become a “human entity” as you say. Another opportunity for you to give us a specific time during gestation. You see, you can’t use the generic term “fetus”. You have to be more specific. i.e - 3 month old fetus, 6 month old fetus.
Yet another opportunity: So what is the specific time?


No. So can I interpret that as say…Day 91 or Day 98? Around 14 wks, the approximate end of the first trimester. There can be no approximations. It has to be a precise moment. It’s tough, I know. You backed yourself into this corner. You have to know the exact moment or abortion could then be murder, by one of your various definitions.


I’m not sure what you mean by a “true accident”? If you accidentally do something; like rear-end someone on the highway, it’s your fault even though you didn’t mean to do it. And even though you didn’t mean to do it, you will get a ticket and have to pay higher insurance premiums.

I did state those things, as a comical way to show that a fetus should not be considered a human being. YOU and YOU only are the one that proclaimed them MY almighty criteria. As I have stated many times, just consciousness.

Day 94, 13 hours, 21 minutes, 4 seconds :P

Sheesh, I've already answered your question, stop reaching.

That isn't a true accident. It is your fault because of recklessness.

Still, you latch onto the intentional/accidental thing and ignore the bible saying that the health of the mother > fetus dying.

I agree, nothing will be solved, except wasting everyones time. Like I said in my above post though, if abortion becomes illegal, it will simply become legal again soon after, as the law will not be sustainable. This is something the anti-abortion people are ignorant of.

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"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." — John Stuart Mill

I agree that there are other socioeconomic / ethical issues or “difficult problems” that contribute or correlate to person’s decision to have an abortion. These issues need to be addressed but I do not think that the banning of abortions done for reasons of convenience should be delayed while we try to figure out the other contributing factors. Example) People that rob convenience stores also have other difficult issues contributing to the crime, but we don’t legalize it because we haven’t figured out these other problems. Otherwise we’d have no convenience stores. We made the offense illegal and enforced the law with punishment, and that makes people think twice about doing it. Now you go about addressing the other issues.


Why won’t the law be sustainable?



Not every fetus develops at the same rate. Some will meet your criteria for life before that day. That would be murder by your definition. You’ve argued your way into this corner and now you have to explain why. Why 94 days, 13 hrs, 21 min and 4 sec. I imagine that you were only halfway serious given the smiley face following your answer. What is the reasoning behind your answer? Why that specific moment? Why not a few weeks earlier or a few weeks later?

I’d love to hear your answer, but if you’re going to be honest with yourself, the answer will likely be that you’re not sure or that you don’t know. You see, you can’t know when every developing fetus attains “consciousness”, and therefore life (by your definition). So now, why 94 days, 13 hrs, 21 min and 4 sec?

before abortion was legal we had this problem, so if we make it illegal...we'll have the problem again. Just because something is law doesn't mean people are going to follow it. Take prohibition for example, they had to overturn that law because it was unenforceable and causing other social problems...abortion is going to be the same way. if they ban it, then people are just going to resort to other means to get the same treatment done.