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Thread: America wises up, slowly Part 2.

  1. Sep 28 2011, 05:29 AM #201
    prometeus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
    No good stuff here supporting the ignorant position that a human fetus is not a human being.
    Actually the "stuff" supporting that a fetus is not recognized as a human being is far more compelling and consistent than fetal homicide laws which of course are inconsistent themselves.
    Let me remind you that:
    - The Census as mandated by the Constitution, does not and has NEVER counted fetuses as persons.
    - Tax laws do not allow fetuses as dependents anywhere in the nation.
    - All persons can be and are identified and can document their identities.
    - All persons leaving or entering the US MUST be and ARE identified AND documented. Pregnant women carrying fetuses are NOT accorded any special attention regarding their fetus.

    Now why don't you list the "stuff" you believe that proves your contention?
    The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...

    "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
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  2. Sep 28 2011, 07:08 AM #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Actually the "stuff" supporting that a fetus is not recognized as a human being is far more compelling and consistent than fetal homicide laws which of course are inconsistent themselves.
    Let me remind you that:
    - The Census as mandated by the Constitution, does not and has NEVER counted fetuses as persons.
    - Tax laws do not allow fetuses as dependents anywhere in the nation.
    - All persons can be and are identified and can document their identities.
    - All persons leaving or entering the US MUST be and ARE identified AND documented. Pregnant women carrying fetuses are NOT accorded any special attention regarding their fetus.

    Now why don't you list the "stuff" you believe that proves your contention?
    None of this has anything to do with the definition of human being, which is synonymous with "person".

    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. "

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  3. Sep 28 2011, 07:37 AM #203
    tomteapack
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    Default Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Unifier View Post
    Doesn't sound much different from abortion, does it? As far as I'm concerned, O.J. Simpson simply aborted his wife.
    Abortion is the LEGAL removal of an unwanted fetus from a human body,with the permission of that person or legal representative.
    Murder is the ILLEGAL killing of a person that exists in law or reality.
    hom·i·cide Noun/ˈhäməˌsīd/
    1. The deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
    So, to be homicide, it must FIRST be illegal. Since abortion is not illegal, it is NOT homicide.
    Second, since homicide is the Illegal killing of a PERSON, and by law, at the time of the LEGAL abortion, a fetus is a fetus and not a person, Then, abortion is NOT homicide.
    Homicide is in no way involved with legal abortion, except in the minds of fools, bigots and kooks or the illiterate.
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  4. Sep 28 2011, 07:43 AM #204
    prometeus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
    None of this has anything to do with the definition of human being, which is synonymous with "person".
    Yet persons, all persons are treated one way and fetuses not.
    So, is it a label you wish to attach to fetuses or the recognition that persons enjoy and fetuses do not?
    Do you believe that society will change because you declare something "synonymous" with something else?
    Last edited by prometeus; Sep 28 2011 at 07:43 AM.
    The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...

    "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
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  5. Sep 28 2011, 07:43 AM #205
    tomteapack
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    Default Abortion is not homicide

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Since quite a few people do deny that a fetus is a human being, quite a few also deny that abortion is a homicide. Guess you were wrong. Dare you to say it. Just 3 little words....
    Never forget that the LEGAL definition of homicide includes the word UNLAWFUL---
    The deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
    By law homicide is just one form of murder, and since abortion is LAWFUL and LEGAL it is not and cannot legally be considered to be homicide.

    People can call a cow, a dog all day, it does not make it so, and the calling abortion, homicide, by fools, does not make that so either.
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  6. Sep 28 2011, 08:13 AM #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
    None of this has anything to do with the definition of human being, which is synonymous with "person".

    ALL of this indicates clearly that fetuses are not considered "human beings" or "persons" and never have been so considered.
    We could learn a lot from crayons:
    some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors....but they all exist very nicely in the same box. --Unknown

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  7. Sep 28 2011, 08:27 AM #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Yet persons, all persons are treated one way and fetuses not.
    Finally you see the reason for the abortion controversy!
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  8. Sep 28 2011, 08:29 AM #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomteapack View Post
    Never forget that the LEGAL definition of homicide includes the word UNLAWFUL---
    It absolutely does not!

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homicide


    "Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree"




    Quote Originally Posted by tomteapack View Post
    The deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
    By law homicide is just one form of murder, and since abortion is LAWFUL and LEGAL it is not and cannot legally be considered to be homicide.
    You could not possibly be more wrong!
    Last edited by Whaler17; Sep 28 2011 at 08:30 AM.
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  9. Sep 28 2011, 08:30 AM #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    ALL of this indicates clearly that fetuses are not considered "human beings" or "persons" and never have been so considered.
    Absolutely untrue, as fetuses are currently specifically defined as persons in some laws.
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  10. Sep 28 2011, 08:41 AM #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomteapack View Post
    Never forget that the LEGAL definition of homicide includes the word UNLAWFUL---
    The deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
    By law homicide is just one form of murder, and since abortion is LAWFUL and LEGAL it is not and cannot legally be considered to be homicide.

    People can call a cow, a dog all day, it does not make it so, and the calling abortion, homicide, by fools, does not make that so either.
    More of my smack down of the ignorant:

    "Homicide is the killing of a human being due to the act or failure to act of another. Criminal homicides include murder and manslaughter. Non-criminal homicides include killing in self-defense, a misadventure like a hunting accident or automobile wreck without a violation of law like reckless driving, or legal (government) execution"

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/homicide/
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. "

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