So its okay to kill it if it doesn't see it coming or if its quick and painless. Watch out blind people. Watch out if your asleep. What is your weapon of choice? MOAB? See when we drop these in Afghan all you libs complained.

lol. Point proved... again.

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Manu Chao - Bongo Bong

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde

"Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise." - Sir Francis Bacon

I believe that most of us know that this is an argument that can not be won in a debate on the internet. And yes, I am voicing my opinion, but I am attempting to understand the other side. Unfortunately, most of them seem unwilling to answer my questions.

While much of the world is covered in gray area, this does not seem to be one of them. Why do I say there is no gray area? Well because you are either killing a kid or you are not. Pretty black and white.

Simple, you give them options so they do not have to abort, or better yet you educate them so they never get to that point in the first place. But if they do get to the point that they are pregnant, but are unable to support a child (because they were too stupid to take necissary precautions) you let them know that it is ok to find someone that actually wants a child and adopt them out.

As someone already said in this thread, there are many people that want kids that can not have them, but because adoptions are so difficult in the U.S (I know because my wife and I were talking to JAG about adopting, but we can not afford it in one shot, unfortunately, the price comes in one shot). they go through second party agencies and adopt from other countries, instead of adopting from their own.

I am not saying that we should spend billions taking care of these kids reared by kids that are too stupid to snap their legs shut (I was a kid once too), I am saying we should give them options. Options they have (on both sides of the fence), but are unwilling to take because it is too hard (we all know hard in the U.S. is a no no now, or so it seems), or to embarrassing (as has been demonstrated in this thread). And lastly, those that are unwilling to take the slightly more difficult route, will be punished.

Big boy rules.

Don't do anything stupid.

If you do something stupid, go big.

The stupid will be punished.

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Jones:- We're going to teach them climbing, abseiling, canoeing, archery, shooting...

Interviewer:- Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible isn't it?

Jones:- I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range.

Interviewer:- Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?
You're equipping them to become violent killers.

Jones:- Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one are you?

Hmmmm interesting - and you're right I hadn't thought of it that way.

But in a sense you have kind of supported my argument - i.e. it's pointless to speculate on whether or not a foetus would `like' being aborted - because as you say, it wouldn't know - nobody would.

BUT I do think that that `not knowing' is even more profound for a foetus, because it has no point of reference or understanding of life and death - they way we do after we are born and get older. It doesn't even know it's alive, whereas we do. So whilst there are situations where we can be `killed instantly' it seems more tragic that way because there is more to be lost - a whole life lost, rather than a few weeks of `existence'.

This is not how I feel personally - I am merely putting it forward as an argument that people might use.

However, the potential in an unborn foetus cannot be measured against the experience that living people already have. The two are separate and equally important entities. For example, let's consider my foetus. We (Max and I) know already that she is going to be an accomplished dancer, win the female Tour De France, and find a cure for cancer. So to abort her would be a great loss to the world!

No, but seriously - I see what you're saying, and I think we actually both agree on that particular point - the conscious `knowing' of being killed / aborted. Whether that conscious knowing has any bearing on the moral rightness or wrongness of killing / aborting is a whole different argument!

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We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

What part of that don't you agree with C-D-P? You seem like a smart guy but i think like the others it's more about the fight than the cause.

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Manu Chao - Bongo Bong

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde

"Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise." - Sir Francis Bacon

Well that is the thing for me. Not knowing is not knowing. Does not knowing make it right?

I understand. But you seem to be up in the air on a lot of issues, which is good because it shows you have an open mind, and I commend you for that.

As we are talking about how other people would see things, lets take this from not a religious perspective about right and wrong, but from a contribution factor (because right and wrong is kind of a religious thing). I would argue this from the other side.

A five year old girl would have experienced more than a fetus, a 16 year old boy would have experienced more than that five year old girl, a twenty year old man in the military would have experienced more than all of the above, a seventy year old man would have experienced more than, once again the above. But all of the above are already closer to death than the fetus, so who has more to give to this community? Now still talking without right or wrong, and simply from who can contribute, is it now wrong to kill the old guy simply because he now may contribute less to the community? Because, lets say we extract God and religion from the equasion, that is what this is really about, the community (not that I would try to remove God from anything).

I can agree with you on this. But from a moral stand point, killing is still killing to me.

For me, if I feel as if that person wants to kill me with malicious intent, or kill mine with the same intent, then ok I can try to kill them back. But that person is not trying to kill me and has no malicious intent, and I kill them, then it is plane old murder.

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Jones:- We're going to teach them climbing, abseiling, canoeing, archery, shooting...

Interviewer:- Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible isn't it?

Jones:- I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range.

Interviewer:- Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?
You're equipping them to become violent killers.

Jones:- Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one are you?

I see what you are saying and it is important (most definitely) for people to listen first and comprehend second and respond third (if necessary), compromise on such passionate, political (as well as moral and philsophical) issues amongst so many diverse (culturally, ethically, religiously, etc) people, is humanly impossible. Let me clarify, when I say compromise, I mostly mean "agreeing to disagree". That's very hard to do when you feel you are passionately correct. Although, you also can't let that get in the way of admitting wrong-doing.

YOU WANT CONSERVATIVES TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS?

We don't need religious law to legally define human life. In fact those "pro-lifers" that base their opinion on abortion due to religious reasons do more damage IMO. Such religious doctrine has no legal basis in countries that permit freedom of religion.
Sex education is important of course, but in a society has made sex into a form of entertainment sex ed can be somewhat of an enabler to promiscuity and basically removes the real meaning of what sexual intercourse really is and the human life that it does often produce.
Can you explain to me the logic behind those that have sex yet refuse to be responsible for that action? The anti-abortion side realizes such consequence and the responsibilty it requires.

People like myself that cannot justify killing the unborn for convenience will likely never meet in the middle. What views would I have to sacrifice to do so?

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine